WikiLeaks

[Marlin]

So nobody should try to make things better because its really hard to make things better? Now that's a self-defeating prophecy. The enemy of good is perfect.

government from sweeping banking reform under the carpet - maybe the rumored BoA documents will do the same here.

It is not even in the really hard range, it is in the impossible range. The people involved have more money than we can even comprehend. Once again, it would take armed revolution or the collapse of the infrastructure they currently rely on for their power base.

He is not doing anything to make anything better. He is just posting stuff on the internet. As for Kenya, who gives a **** about Kenya? Obama probably does, but they are not a key world player by any means. All 16 people in Kenya that have internet read his post and it changed an election, now they have a whole new band of brothers to lead the way in corruption. Once again, if it came out tomorrow via Wikileaks that Hillary had a whole town in Idaho burned to the ground, the CEO of BoA stole the Crown Jewels and that the Rothchilds only ate the flesh of new born babies, what would you do? Probably the same thing I would do, not a damned thing. You are forgetting the amounts of money involved in their world. THEY DON"T CARE WHAT YOU OR I THINK! THEY ARE NOT ELECTED OFFICIALS, AND YES, THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW. Hell, the only reason that Madoff was busted is because he stole from other wealthy people that had the money and influence to do something about it. If he stole all that money 10K at a time from people like you and me, he would still be sailing the seven seas in his sweet *** yacht.
Most of Obama's compadres are appointed, not elected. You have no say in what goes on, nor does anyone else.

I don't care what BoA documents come out, it will do nothing. We are not even concerned about 9 trillion dollars in loans that were given to them under the rug! Once again, if it came out that they were stealing homes from so-called innocent people, or taking the government loans and putting them right into their pockets, lying on forms, purposely bribing city officials to lower the values of homes to cause the housing bubble collapse, it still would not matter. Not until every member of BoA withdrew all their cash, people with BoA mortgages, credit cards and so on just stopped paying would it make a difference.

What do you think is going to happen? Or better yet, what do you want to happen? I am just curious.

As for the TJ quote, you are partially correct. I was interpreting his words in today's state of affairs. I believe it still applies, but he was not referring to the printed press or the corruption of newspapers, he was indeed talking about government control and the creation of programs to "protect and care for the common citizen". Just not social welfare programs as we know them. I am updating my signature now

[Y33TREKker]

It is not even in the really hard range, it is in the impossible range. The people involved have more money than we can even comprehend....

Another example of placing too much esteem on those in positions of power and affluence?

Let's keep it simple, just because some have apparently decided to give up because they believe nothing can be done doesn't mean everyone has.

A quote from another President.

"It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly...who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt

[Marlin]

Another example of placing too much esteem on those in positions of power and affluence?

Let's keep it simple, just because some have apparently decided to give up because they believe nothing can be done doesn't mean everyone has.

A quote from another President.

'Some' infers that it is the minority. I would say almost all would be a better quantifier. Haven't seen anyone do anything of importance lately.

I am not putting too much esteem on the wealthy, but if it comes down to it, there is not a whole lot you can't do with a few million bucks. Make people disappear, car accident, fired from your job, slander of character and so on.
Money talks. Until the day that money no longer talks, it will continue to be this way. Meanwhile, I will continue to prepare for that day, and it will come, wait until the USD is no longer the world reserver currency, 10 dollar loaf of bread, 25 dollars for a gallon of gas...we have gone so long without doing things for ourselves, it will be a difficult transition to say the least. A majority of our country would have no idea what to do if Starbucks closed tomorrow, and walmart closed up shop. Just look at the last presidential election, then you will know what 'majority' I am talking about.

Ask yourself, would you know how to survive if there were no stores to get all your necessities from? Do you have the means to make your own safe water, do you have a plan on where to go when cities become death traps? Could you defend your family and your belongings? Could you make your own vehicle repairs, are in you in good enough shape to hike miles if need be? Can you start a fire or make a shelter? (this is not directed at any specific person, but more of a reality check for those that are reading)

When I was in Guam, a large typhoon decimated the island. We went almost a month with no gasoline, the island's fuel farm burned to the ground. No gas=no electricity=no stores=money was worthless. If it wasn't for the Navy and Airforce having their own fuel/water/power plants, that island would have been a warzone. That was a wake-up call for me.

So until money is worthless, those that have the gold will continue to rule. You can get mad at them, you can call them names, but it makes absolutely no difference since the individuals are not elected officials, they are appointed or just simply employees. Until someone starts firing shots at em, there isn't a whole lot you can do. Look at the OJ trial, proof that if you have enough money, you are above the law (unless you Eff with another extremely wealthy individual)

I do wonder why no one has responded to the fact that we gave the major banks 9 trillion dollars at less than 1% interest with no public disclosure until a few years later. Where did we even get 9 trillion dollars? Oh wait, we didn't, the Fed just printed more money. You could invest that kind of money and earn ridiculous interest beyond 1%, oh wait, thats what they did, all at our expense and devaluation of the dollar. We could have divided that 9 trillion between every tax paying citizen and solved every financial crisis in the world. Houses paid off, new cars purchased, all kinds of things purchased, health care no longer an issue...

[Y33TREKker]

'Some' infers that it is the minority. I would say almost all would be a better quantifier.

Actually, I used the word "some" out of respect because I didn't just want to come out and say "you", but since you've also seen fit to now try to spin my comments to mean something they don't, I suppose all bets are off.

Given the rest of your post, it's obvious you've decided to go "glass is half-full" and give up. That's your prerogative of course, but just because it's what you've decided, it doesn't mean it's the best alternative to choose.

I'm no genius, and admit I can sometimes be wrong, so I sometimes also keep quotes in mind from those more intelligent than myself.

"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein

[Marlin]

What are you going to do? Talking about not giving up means nothing. What are you going to do if something serious comes out of wikileaks?

I never said I gave up, I am just doing the only thing I can, preparing for the worst.

I think we are in a rut here, arguing the same thing with same point of view. Do I think the system is screwed up, yes. Do I think our elected officials are cheats, yes. When given the resources that they have available to them, the incredible amounts of money, corruption is inevitable.

Is there anything we, the common citizen, can do about it, I don't think so. Not without violence. Formal law enforcement doesn't mean a whole lot when you are the one that directs them what to do.

So once again, what do you propose the common person do about the problems?

[Y33TREKker]

...So once again, what do you propose the common person do about the problems?

You must be a barrel of laughs during the family games of Monopoly.

I guess further clarification is needed. Your comments seem to be alternating between assuming that wikileaks is accomplishing nothing and that all they will accomplish by persisting is a collapse of civilization as we know it.

What can the common person do? Support entities who at least attempt to change things rather than only trying to discredit them when they try. Don't you think that doing nothing or helping to discredit the whistle-blowers of the world is exactly what the people you perceive as none being able to touch would hope you would do?

It's good to hear that you haven't given up, but your efforts are admittedly one-sided if all you are doing is preparing for the worst. So let's say that in the end you are right about the way the world is going to end up. And let's also say that Einstein was wrong.

I can't help but wonder what consolation it would be to you and your family at that point to know that you were right, as you also no doubt occasionally wondered what more you could have possibly been doing along with your current apocalyptic preparations to prevent the world from becoming what it did.

As bad as it may be, I personally believe that there is still more "civil" in current civilization than there would be in the one you are preparing for. And besides, that is still then, and since all we really have is now, the future remains unwritten.

[circmand]

That's an oversimplification. They were spying at the UN in direct contravention of treaties the US government has agreed to. We haven't agreed not to spy in general, just not to abuse the trust that the UN is meant to engender.

.

My god that is so funny I busted a gut when I read it. I had to reread it just to make sure someone actually had the balls to post it. I doubt anyone could say it with a straight face though. The UN is the most corrupt organization in the whole worls. Where else cam leaders who torture and kile hundreds of thousands be put in charge of the human rights division. Where else can troops be sent to defend the defenseless end up raping and robbingthose sent to defend. Haiti you have medical problems we will send help that causes you to get even worse diseases and cover it up. Hey you want Sadaam to play nice the UN will run an oil for food program that allows him to purchase weapons. Noth Korea attacks South Korea twice well it must be South Koreas fault for getting attacked. Not to mention the dozens of times they supported terrorist PLA over Israel.

So yeah If we arent going to quit the UN and stop funding it I am all for spying on every evil member or anyone who deals with them. That includes England releasing the Lockerbie bomber for oil rights.

[Marlin]

You must be a barrel of laughs during the family games of Monopoly.

What can the common person do? Support entities who at least attempt to change things rather than only trying to discredit them when they try. Don't you think that doing nothing or helping to discredit the whistle-blowers of the world is exactly what the people you perceive as none being able to touch would hope you would do?

Waaiiiit aaaaa seeeecond. You didn't answer my question!!!! What can the average person do? Agree that the stuff he is posting is true and that those people are bad? That and 50 cents will get you a coke. Us not liking 'them' means absolutely nothing.
Are you suggesting that we sit around and wait for someone else to do something? Maybe some redneck with a Barrett will take care of the problem?
Blow the whistle all day long, it doesn't mean anything is going to happen.
I understand what you are saying about supporting the guy, but I would rather support the angry redneck (enter angry mullet smiley here) that might actually get something done.

Since today is civilized, why not just maintain the status quo and leave well enough alone?
Although an old soldier once said, "Knowing is half the battle"

[Stephen Biko]

The UN is the most corrupt organization in the whole worls.

Never fear, mindless hyperbole is here!!!
Or in other words, more of "the enemy of good is perfect" thinking.

So yeah If we arent going to quit the UN and stop funding it I am all for spying on every evil member or anyone who deals with them.

So when they lie and cheat it's corruption, but if you do it in the name of the USA it's fine. Goose, meet gander.

[Stephen Biko]

INothing is going to change short of an armed revolution.

Why does your nihilism stop there? Name one armed revolution that has fixed the problem of corruption in the history of the world. You can't -- we had one 200 years ago and look where we are today -- a total failure by your very own definition.

Your entire argument boils down to defining the situation as unfixable and then dismissing anyone who says otherwise. You aren't even a glass half-empty kinda guy, you are a glass is a bottomless pit kinda guy. Good thing people like Upton Sinclair, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Mohandas Ghandi, Nelson Mandela and tens of thousands more weren't nihilists.

[circmand]

Never fear, mindless hyperbole is here!!!
Or in other words, more of "the enemy of good is perfect" thinking..

Does this mean? It in no way addresses the post. I love when ignorant people quote smart people (out of context) in the hope other people will think they aren't as stupid as they really are.



.[/QUOTE]So when they lie and cheat it's corruption, but if you do it in the name of the USA it's fine. Goose, meet gander.[/QUOTE]

No when they lie and cheat using the USA Tax payer's money it is corruption. When we use any means at our disposal to minimize the damage they cause it is prudence.

[Marlin]

Why does your nihilism stop there? Name one armed revolution that has fixed the problem of corruption in the history of the world. You can't -- we had one 200 years ago and look where we are today -- a total failure by your very own definition.

Umm, a 200 year run is pretty good, and I never said we are a failure, especially by my own definition. But with huge sums of money comes complete corruption, especially when it isn't your money, hence the necessity for a small government and lower taxes. Let people take care of themselves, bring back responsibility and accountability. That has to start at the bottom. In counter to your anti-revolution question, name me one successful revolution that occurred without violence that was just as successful, one that has lasted 200 years.Hell, while your at it, name a ruling society that has lasted...greeks-nope,romans-nope,persians-nope, European monarchies-nope.

Your entire argument boils down to defining the situation as unfixable and then dismissing anyone who says otherwise.
I never dismissed anyone, I just continue to ask the question of what you are going to do when wiki releases something of actual importance. What are YOU going to do? You aren't even a glass half-empty kinda guy, you are a glass is a bottomless pit kinda guy. I am actually a silver lining kind of guy for most things. But I am realist when it comes to these big picture concepts. I have been around the world, I have seen some ****ty places, Bahrain, UAE, Malaysia and so on. I have seen what becomes of a place overrun with corruption. That is the path we are headed down. Good thing people like Upton Sinclair, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Mohandas Ghandi, Nelson Mandela and tens of thousands more weren't nihilists.

All the above folks were civil rights leaders, not whistle blowers. Those are two completely different things. If the country found out that everyone in South Dakota had been enslaved to work a government Nike factory, something might happen, but corporate corruption, government spying, we already know about all these things, and we don't care. We care more about catering to the gay minority than we do the big problems that affect the entire nation and our economic foundations because helping the underdog makes us feel better. Toppling a corporate empire doesn't. There is no risk in supporting some special interest group.
Hopefully someone can make a liar out of me and lead a non-violent revolution that will set things straight. Till then, I will continue building my survival kit to support my family in a worst case scenario and not wait for someone else to take care of me and mine.

[Stephen Biko]

All the above folks were civil rights leaders, not whistle blowers.

You don't know who Upton Sinclair was.

We care more about catering to the gay minority than we do the big problems that affect the entire nation and our economic foundations because helping the underdog makes us feel better.

That's a false dichotomy. It is entirely possible to care about both things without one interfering with the other.

I never dismissed anyone, I just continue to ask the question of what you are going to do when wiki releases something of actual importance.

Sure you did - when you say things like, "Until the day that money no longer talks, it will continue to be this way." and "Nothing is going to change short of an armed revolution." Those are outright dismissals of the idea that informed voting and the rule of law can change anything.

[Stephen Biko]

Does this mean? It in no way addresses the post. I love when ignorant people quote smart people (out of context) in the hope other people will think they aren't as stupid as they really are.

Mean this does. Context quote hope out stupid. Really!!!!

No when they lie and cheat using the USA Tax payer's money it is corruption. When we use any means at our disposal to minimize the damage they cause it is prudence.

When we break our promises it is prudence. When they break their promises it is corruption. Mean this does! Mean this does!!!!!

[Y33TREKker]

Waaiiiit aaaaa seeeecond. You didn't answer my question!!!!

On the contrary. My answer was even specifically tailored for you; a person who has admittedly chosen to do nothing...at least in the way of supporting an entity that is trying to do something anyway.

I provided an option anyone could choose to adopt, and just because you personally didn't feel that option qualified as an acceptable answer doesn't mean it didn't.

Viewed even another way though, maybe it's as you say, and the efforts of wikileaks will do no good. Since you think what they are attempting is impossible, why is it apparently not enough for you to just sit back and watch them fail? Instead, you are going out of your way and expending an awful lot of effort to convince others that's the inevitable conclusion.

Well why is that? That's my question.