4 Officers shot near Lakewood WA

[vt_maverick]

This is not the first person he let out who ended up killing someone.

Makes you miss G-Dub doesn't it? I'm pretty sure I read that he let every inmate on death row fry during his tenture as TX governor. No exceptions.

[pbkid]

I guess I just don't understand why there is such a movement against guns. Yes, they are devices designed with a single, clearly defined purpose. But this country was founded on the freedoms many people take for granted. And it was also born of violence. There is no utopia. There never will be, so long as humankind inhabits this planet. And like I said before, a little danger is fun. Who wants to live in a completely sterile society where everything is illegal except TV and video games and fast food???

Sorry, but there is no convincing me that the world can be a better place.

Bart

x2....

i would MUCH rather have a chance to protect myself than just be a unarmed moving target.....f-that....

ill keep my guns, and ill keep em close

[djvx]

... and I'll be waiting for the day when one more of such "carriers" gets crazy and shot innocent people. Or his kids accidentally shot neighborhood dog using his gun.

always wanted to see the statistics on how many innocent people were killed by easily accessible weapons vs how many lives were saved by them [easily accessible weapons]

Hey ZubrAZ, One of the cops shot back, and hit the shooter in the gut. And maybe if others in the restaraunt had guns they could have shot and KILLED the shooter before he got away. . . Go take a gun shooting class or learn about the subject a little more. Your opinion sounds quite uninformed.

[circmand]

Not to pile on but while you are waiting for a legally armed citizen to screw up and accidentally shoot an inocent bystander illegally armed armed felons are shooting and killing people all over the country. Face it the are enough laws on the books about fire arms and other stuff. Its just that criminals do not obey the laws. So new laws limiting law abiding citizens even further will make us easier targets not safer. While more laws may make you feel safer because you ignore the common sense result it is not a reason for me to be less protected.

[pbkid]

Hey ZubrAZ, One of the cops shot back, and hit the shooter in the gut. And maybe if others in the restaraunt had guns they could have shot and KILLED the shooter before he got away. . . Go take a gun shooting class or learn about the subject a little more. Your opinion sounds quite uninformed.

umm..... every report i heard said that all the officers were armed.......
did i hear the wrong report?

[RabidPony]

umm..... every report i heard said that all the officers were armed.......
did i hear the wrong report?

He means what if some of the other patrons had guns. The perp knew the police were armed and used the element of surprise to neutralize them before they could really retaliate. However, if one or more of the cafe's other patrons had been armed, they could have eliminated him then and there. Possibly saving the life of one or more of the officers.

I would love to be able to carry but getting your permit in California takes an act of God.

[pbkid]

He means what if some of the other patrons had guns. The perp knew the police were armed and used the element of surprise to neutralize them before they could really retaliate. However, if one or more of the cafe's other patrons had been armed, they could have eliminated him then and there. Possibly saving the life of one or more of the officers.
ya, this is truely sad. one more argument for keeping CWL's around

I would love to be able to carry but getting your permit in California takes an act of God.

really sad. this is the kinda stuff that causes cops to be overly cautious and seem like a-holes.

[ZubrAZ]

i do believe in statistics. although, i do not have anything to back myself up, i also tend to believe that criminals who kill with weapons (or use weapons for crime), do not get them from stores. to protect themself from easily being tracked, isnt that true? they get guns from different sources

accidental shootings or shootings done by people who go crazy, who being pumped up, lets say, after fist fight, or who take the weapons to brawls to get some confidence (kids in particular) done by those weapons that you can get and that people do get from gun shops.

djvx, good example: 4 armed trained persons were not able to protect themselves (im sorry for them and their families, but it is a fact, they were not). what can you say about regular citizen who does his hundreds shots annually for fun and can aim? is he a protector?! is his gun ownership gonna save his life? I dont think so. But if follow the news, you be sure that to find numerous articles about accidental killings of such owners or their relatives

and im kind of not against the guns, but Iwould rather for much stricter rules to obtain ones, but since there are basically no rules, I'm against them.

[RabidPony]

My .02 on the subject of gun control comes down to the rather cliche saying, "Gun control means using both hands." I think the laws on firearm ownership should be loosened considerably but with the stipulation of required training. I served proudly in the Marine Corps and was brought up around firearms. I was even an firearms instructor at one point. So, due to my training, I can safely and properly handle any type of weapon from a little BB gun all the way up to antitank missiles and everything in between. Therefore, I feel that I should be able to own pretty much any weapon out there. However, I don't think that some suburbanite who thinks he's hard because he watched Rambo but has never held a weapon in his life, should have access to the same weapons I do.

A good example is how the UK handles licensing of motorcycles. Over there you can't just run down to the dealership and pick up an R1 or a Busa if you're a first time rider. They require you to start small and spend a minimum set amount of time on each class of bike before letting you upgrade your license and move up to the next size. I think treating firearms the same here in the US would ultimately result in a much safer public. Start small, and work your way up. Then once you reach the top bracket, get whatever you want.

[circmand]

i do believe in statistics. although, i do not have anything to back myself up, i also tend to believe that criminals who kill with weapons (or use weapons for crime), do not get them from stores. to protect themself from easily being tracked, isnt that true? they get guns from different sources

accidental shootings or shootings done by people who go crazy, who being pumped up, lets say, after fist fight, or who take the weapons to brawls to get some confidence (kids in particular) done by those weapons that you can get and that people do get from gun shops.

djvx, good example: 4 armed trained persons were not able to protect themselves (im sorry for them and their families, but it is a fact, they were not). what can you say about regular citizen who does his hundreds shots annually for fun and can aim? is he a protector?! is his gun ownership gonna save his life? I dont think so. But if follow the news, you be sure that to find numerous articles about accidental killings of such owners or their relatives

and im kind of not against the guns, but Iwould rather for much stricter rules to obtain ones, but since there are basically no rules, I'm against them.

The average hunter shoots far more often than the average cop. I would bet the average gun owner does as well. The training received by most police officers is a far lower amountthan you may think. Even those that graduate from a police academy shoot rarely once qualified. Had there been armed patrons they may not have saved the cops lived but I bet they would have saved the cost of the manhunt.

[pbkid]

The average hunter shoots far more often than the average cop. I would bet the average gun owner does as well. The training received by most police officers is a far lower amountthan you may think. Even those that graduate from a police academy shoot rarely once qualified. Had there been armed patrons they may not have saved the cops lived but I bet they would have saved the cost of the manhunt.

where do you get these statistics circ?? pullin em out your arse?

[Osteomata]

I find this whole thread distressing on many levels. The tragedy is bad enough without our supposedly close knit group turning these officers' deaths into a forum to debate gun control, angrily in at least a few cases ("idiot"). I find it further frustrating that people who would probably define themselves as patriots are perfectly comfortable advocating, in effect, extra-judicial slayings of suspects, and the removal of legally established due process and the entire appeals system, a core part of our legal system, as well. There have been numerous numerous cases of people convicted of horrific, serious crimes, capital offenses, only to have later evidence prove them innocent. Further, eliminating any appeals process would massively encourage already rampant prosecutorial misconduct, since there would be no forum in which to find it. I like to count myself as a patriot too, and I am willing to bet that these officers were patriots as well, and I like to hope, perhaps naively, that some of them, as officers of the law, would want us to support the actual laws and constitution rather than the third world autocratic death squad state some of you seem to be arguing for.
/rant

[circmand]

I find this whole thread distressing on many levels. The tragedy is bad enough without our supposedly close knit group turning these officers' deaths into a forum to debate gun control, angrily in at least a few cases ("idiot"). I find it further frustrating that people who would probably define themselves as patriots are perfectly comfortable advocating, in effect, extra-judicial slayings of suspects, and the removal of legally established due process and the entire appeals system, a core part of our legal system, as well. There have been numerous numerous cases of people convicted of horrific, serious crimes, capital offenses, only to have later evidence prove them innocent. Further, eliminating any appeals process would massively encourage already rampant prosecutorial misconduct, since there would be no forum in which to find it. I like to count myself as a patriot too, and I am willing to bet that these officers were patriots as well, and I like to hope, perhaps naively, that some of them, as officers of the law, would want us to support the actual laws and constitution rather than the third world autocratic death squad state some of you seem to be arguing for.
/rant

We have the right to free speech and you have the right to ignore us. Just because we all share an affinity for an unique automobile does not mean we have to march in lock step in every thought. We are all adults (I think) and should be mature enough to realize not everyone will agree with us even if we all drive the same car. Remember we all customize a different way and have chosen from a rainbow of colors. Of course it is great that you share your thoughts with us as well.

[RabidPony]

I find this whole thread distressing on many levels. The tragedy is bad enough without our supposedly close knit group turning these officers' deaths into a forum to debate gun control, angrily in at least a few cases ("idiot"). I find it further frustrating that people who would probably define themselves as patriots are perfectly comfortable advocating, in effect, extra-judicial slayings of suspects, and the removal of legally established due process and the entire appeals system, a core part of our legal system, as well. There have been numerous numerous cases of people convicted of horrific, serious crimes, capital offenses, only to have later evidence prove them innocent. Further, eliminating any appeals process would massively encourage already rampant prosecutorial misconduct, since there would be no forum in which to find it. I like to count myself as a patriot too, and I am willing to bet that these officers were patriots as well, and I like to hope, perhaps naively, that some of them, as officers of the law, would want us to support the actual laws and constitution rather than the third world autocratic death squad state some of you seem to be arguing for.
/rant

I do support our legal system, however, I also realize that it is far from perfect. It is a very unfortunate fact that there are thousands of less than moral members of the legal community out there that have so twisted our legal system that it has come to the point where it sometime seems that the criminals are more protected and have more rights than a good, law abiding citizen. That, I feel, is a shame. I do not advocate death squads or any facsimile there of, I do, however, feel that it is unfair and unjust that someone who murders another person live out their life to it's natural end, incarcerated or not. I should not have to pay to support someone who is a bane to society with the taxes taken from my hard earned money. I can think of much better things to spend the money on. Better pay, training, and equipment for law enforcement for example.

I do mourn the loss of those officers and my sympathies go out to their families in their time of mourning. But that does not mean I will put aside my anger and frustration with the person that committed the heinous act. He did it, there were witnesses who identified him. There was no question as to his guilt. In my eyes, his death at the hands of that officer was justified and only served to save the taxpayers of that city and state the time, effort, and valuable taxpayer money that would have been expended on his trial and incarceration.

[Ldub]

RabidPony 4 PREZ!