4 Officers shot near Lakewood WA

[Osteomata]

Circmand,
I did write that sentence, and it was in THAT post that I wanted to tone it, hoped to tone it down, but after readig your insinuation about my tolerance of child rape, I was unable to completely do so.

As to the crimes, I was largely correct. The crimes you list are exactly those I referred to. My failure was perhaps being loose with specific categories of crime, i.e., theft/burglery/robbery. The assault was committed with his fist, not a weapon. I did make on error, and I apologize for it, he did have a illegal firearm conviction in there too, but he did not use it in the assault.

And yes, they were all sentenced at once. 108 years for burglary and theft and assault with a fist and a seperate possession charge.

What I don't understand is why you think burglary and theft and assault committed by a juvenile should be punished by execution.

What I really don't understand is where you get your imagined powers of future vision. Because the entirety of my argument has been that given the information Huckabee had to work with, which at the time was only the crimes committed in 1989 and 1990, I have trouble faulting his decision because no one really has magical predictive powers. YOU argued against.

At no time did I suggest that the later crimes, like those committed in 2001 or the sexual assault committed this year, should be treated lightly. At no time. This did not stop you from directly implying that I did.

[circmand]

Circmand,
I did write that sentence, and it was in THAT post that I wanted to tone it, hoped to tone it down, but after readig your insinuation about my tolerance of child rape, I was unable to completely do so.

As to the crimes, I was largely correct. The crimes you list are exactly those I referred to. My failure was perhaps being loose with specific categories of crime, i.e., theft/burglery/robbery. The assault was committed with his fist, not a weapon. I did make on error, and I apologize for it, he did have a illegal firearm conviction in there too, but he did not use it in the assault.

And yes, they were all sentenced at once. 108 years for burglary and theft and assault with a fist and a seperate possession charge.

What I don't understand is why you think burglary and theft and assault committed by a juvenile should be punished by execution.

What I really don't understand is where you get your imagined powers of future vision. Because the entirety of my argument has been that given the information Huckabee had to work with, which at the time was only the crimes committed in 1989 and 1990, I have trouble faulting his decision because no one really has magical predictive powers. YOU argued against.

At no time did I suggest that the later crimes, like those committed in 2001 or the sexual assault committed this year, should be treated lightly. At no time. This did not stop you from directly implying that I did.

as listed he committed several crimes including using a weapon it was not one just one unarmed crime. The crimes were comitted over several years 79 thru 90, it was a crime spree. just one of those (Sentenced to 20 years each for burglary and theft of property in Pulaski County, Feb. 23, 1990.) was enough for 20 years. While I never said these were enough for the death penalty it was the child rape that was bad enough for it as I have stated twice now. So even if the 198 years was too severe he should at least have served the term for the worst crime. Which would have kept him in prison through 2010. But he was let out after only 11 years. Then he raped the child while on probation and was given bail so he could commit murder. You are right no one can read the future but this guy was given 3 different breaks before commiting the murders. I can read the future enough to know if he was not let out early he would not have raped the child. If we was not given bail he could not have killed the cops. So it really seems keep him locked up would have made everyone including this butcher better off.

[vt_maverick]

Geez is this still going?

[Ldub]

Geez is this still going?

As usual, it's become a "who gets the last word" contest...

Nobody has changed the others mind, both sides remain steadfast in their belief, nothing has changed since a random finger made the first key stroke...






And so it goes, & always shall.

[VXR]

As usual, it's become a "who gets the last word" contest...

Nobody has changed the others mind, both sides remain steadfast in their belief, nothing has changed since a random finger made the first key stroke...






And so it goes, & always shall.

I believe (no mater how painful on both sides) these debates are healthy for the good of all. after all is the goal to change the others mind or just get closer to the truth?

[Ldub]

I believe (no mater how painful on both sides) these debates are healthy for the good of all. after all is the goal to change the others mind or just get closer to the truth?

The truth has been out there for anyone who can read or google...or both even, since about day 1 or 2.

Rehashing it on a primarily automotive forum serves no real purpose IMO.

And gun control & the death penalty? PLEASE, how many different ways have those tired old horses been beat to death over the last....oh, lets say century?

Bet none of us can count that high...

[Osteomata]

circmand,
Clearly our debate suffers from the blending of issues. You have repeatedly included events (failures by law enforcement or prosecutors in 2004 and 2009) into the argument for which I have made no defense. I have only defended the situation Hucakabee (and I am NOT a fan of the man) faced in a clemency hearing in 2000, and by extension, the power of governors to grant clemency, commute sentences, and in very special cases, grant pardons. You can continue to pretend that I somehow defend the errors made in 2004 (failure to revoke parole) and 2009 (granting bail), but I did not. You can even continue to pretend that I consider child rape a minor issue.

Back to the actual issue: The period of the crimes for which he first went to prison was 1989 to 1990, not 1979 to 1990. 18 months not 11 years. The assault did not include a weapon, you are repeatedly mistaken. I suspect that it is the seperate firearms possession that is leading you to believe this.

The molestation occured nineteen years later, or if you prefer, eight years after parole.
You repeatedly insist on including crimes that NO ONE could have predicted into the debate about Hucakabee's clemency decision, unless you believe in miraculous phychic power. Your statements on this have been consistant and either stated outright or implied as is directly possible that this incident is Huckabee's fault and he was either foolish or weak or in violation of some sort of ill-defined will of the people or the law. And you have provided no information that changes the actual facts in the incident: He had a juvenile defendent, with crimes limited to burglery, robbery, non-weapon assault, and an earlier possession charge. He had served 11 years of a 108 sentence. The sentence was in excess of the average for first incarceration for these types of crimes. He was recommended for clemency, Huckabee granted it, which only made him eliglible for, but not guaranteed parole . The parole board voted 5-0 to grant parole.

And I think the part that gets me the most, is you want to make this case the standard by which all sentences are judged. That we must pretend like every parolee is a likely child molester and cop killer, so no one can be granted parole. We already have the highest percentage of our populatin in prison in the world. How much higher would you like it to go?

[Ldub]

OK, now he's got the last word...next?...

Couldn't you two accomplish the same futile goal by emailing each other?

Many of the rest of us don't feel the need for any further enlightenment.

[circmand]

No matter how clearly I make my point you still seem to not understand it or change what I say to make your point valid.
* The original most serious of the several crimes commited was good enough for 20 years. So while 108 years was too severe 11 years the time he served was not severe enough.
* Commuting his sentence allowed him to get out in 11 years Mistake One and yes no one could know a violent felon would commit another crime despite the fact it almost always happens.
*while on parole he rapes a child. He is given bail instead of incarceration Mistake two. Who could predict a violent felon who is on parole who rapes a child might commit another crime? I think by now most people can predict the answer to this.
* This violent felon murders 4 police officers and goes on the lam. Friends and family assist in helping him. he is finnaly gunned down in an arrest. wow a cop killer gunned down by police who could predict that. Huge sums of money spent in the man hunt who could predict that?

So since we cant read the future we ask ourselves was the proper decision made by the one person who was allowed to over rule a jury and a judge? Well the one made allowed a violent and deragnged criminal who had 6 arrests on his record to be freed before he spent 11% of his sentence in prison, he raped a child and murdered 4 people. Had the decision been to keep him in jail would any of this have happened? No!

So since we can not read the future we have to chose from two different methods. One protects the felon and allows him out and one that protects society and keeps him in prison. You would put society at risk I would put the criminal in jail. Given that the felon was shot to death even he would be better off still alive and in prison that shot dead by police and having 8 of his friends and relatives going to prison for aiding and abeting his escape. Frankly I do not see anyone better off in the methos you prefer we use please show me who is better off by us releasing violent felons who statistics show have a very high rate of recidivism.

[ZubrAZ]

for me, as an immigrant in particular, and yonger fella than most of you are, it is kind of interesting to read live discussions with some history insights. also, their opinions are logically sound, at least to me.

I would even ask them to continue. the truth born in debates (c)

[Ldub]

for me, as an immigrant in particular, and yonger fella than most of you are, it is kind of interesting to read live discussions with some history insights. also, their opinions are logically sound, at least to me.

I would even ask them to continue. the truth born in debates (c)

Then you will LVE this...

A site specifically made for the debate of all recent political topics...who'd a thunk it?......

With an even LONGER thread on this specific topic...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...years-ago.html

So far...28 pages, 279 posts...all leading to the exact same end.........

Same vBulletin format, so y'all will feel right at home...

This is my personal favorite...http://www.debatepolitics.com/news-weird/

AND...they've got a really sweet arcade section, with lotsa swell games to play......



Happy Reading...

[vt_maverick]

It's Friday! A little humor to lighten the thread...

[Ldub]

It's Friday! A little humor to lighten the thread...

............

[Osteomata]

LDub,
I see your points, and acknowledge nearly every aspect of it. But this is chitchat, and though harsh at times, we are having an ongoing discussion. And does it really bother you to simply know of the existance of a thread with this material in it? Its not like we are making you read it. (I don't know how to word that without it sounding rude, please take it as not intended to sound rude.)

[Ldub]

LDub,
I see your points, and acknowledge nearly every aspect of it. But this is chitchat, and though harsh at times, we are having an ongoing discussion. And does it really bother you to simply know of the existance of a thread with this material in it? Its not like we are making you read it. (I don't know how to word that without it sounding rude, please take it as not intended to sound rude.)

Doesn't bother me in the least...I just don't see the point...especially when I've so graciously provided you a more appropriate sandbox to bury your turds in...