**Patriotic Retirement**

[Marlin]

The Fair Tax would level the playing field for everyone.

-- John

True, true, if everyone paid 12.5%, regardless if you make $6/hr or $1000, it would be fair.
As far as the wealthy being wealthy, you are right, there is not a person in the world worth 10 million dollars a year or anything ridiculous like that unless they own the business. But before the outrage against corporate personnel, lets look at our sports teams. Notice they have kept their mouths shut the whole time. They are being paid mostly by the lower/middle class America, kind of makes me wonder where our priorities are, yet no one complains about them.
As for hard work paying off, you are 100% correct, unfortunately, most Americans think they are owed something for being American. I did not drink,do drugs, knock up my girlfriend, skip school and so on and that is why I am successful. My wife lived at home and worked her way through college and got her bachelors in about 2.5 years. Hard work does pay off.
Voting your tax dollars into your own pocket is a bad idea. So is giving it to retards who already failed. Any company accepting government funding should be required to fire all staff in tenure more than 5 years.
And one more thing, the wealthy generally become wealthy for a reason...hard work, sacrifice and being smarter than those around them. Can't get wealthy and stay wealthy by being dumb, or lazy.

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

[tomdietrying]

The wealthy get wealthy for a reason. Yes, the wealthy who made the initial money. Let's talk about the offspring of the wealthy individual who doesn't work hard. There are a lot of people who fall into that catorgory. I can promise you they make more money than you and put together, and it's not because of their work ethic. Why do you think that is?

I know you worked hard to get where you are, but you seem angry at people who are poorer than you. You do realize there are hard working people who come from loving families who are going to stay poor. There is no moving up for some people. Is that called laziness or something else?

Peace.
Tom

[Marlin]

The wealthy get wealthy for a reason. Yes, the wealthy who made the initial money. Let's talk about the offspring of the wealthy individual who doesn't work hard. There are a lot of people who fall into that catorgory. I can promise you they make more money than you and put together, and it's not because of their work ethic. Why do you think that is?

I know you worked hard to get where you are, but you seem angry at people who are poorer than you. You do realize there are hard working people who come from loving families who are going to stay poor. There is no moving up for some people. Is that called laziness or something else?

Peace.
Tom

I seriously doubt that any significant percentage of the "wealthy" inherited their wealth. Matter of fact, I would venture that a huge majority of them have college degrees, and did not have children till they were at least 25. As I said, "A fool and his money are soon parted." Look at all the "poor" people who have won the lottery and file bankruptcy a few years later. Dumb.
As far as being angry at the poor, yes, for the most part I am. They voted for someone with no idea why, only cause of skin color and advertising, they had no idea what the issues were or who they even were, which the electoral college is supposed to prevent that problem.
Most of the poor are not willing to work hard!! The Mcds by my house is hiring, as well as most of the other fast food places, because no one will work there because they do not pay enough, yet we have record high unemployment rates!!! That makes me furious. I work over 70 hours a week, and I am fine. It will not kill someone to work two jobs, and God forbid...............weekends!!!!! Want to really blame someone, start at the unions. Fighting for people to get paid more than they deserve as unskilled workers for decades, and the consumer has to pay for it.(Enter failed American car industry)
Remember, there will always be poor people, tis the nature of the beast, and although I was not poor as a kid, we certainly were not rich, I got waivers to pay for after school activites based on grades and behavior, discount lunches and so on. As I said, I made tough choices, didn't do stupid *****, and voila, here I am, doin alright.
Everyone has that chance, and if you cannot give that chance to your child, then you have no business having children, having a child is not a right, it is a responsibility.

PS-Tom, I enjoy our bantering and look forward to meeting you at Moab. All the guys I work with (who also work 70 hours a week and weekends, feel the same way I do, so no good arguments to be had there) I already packed up your shocks too so I will not forget them!

[circmand]

Sure you have a few Bill Gates who invented something great but most of his wealth is in his own stock. Most of the wealthy inherited such as Trump and the Hiltons their grand parents were robber barons in the past an dhanded down their wealth sure the kids went to college and graduated after their were endowments and buildings paid for by their rich parents. At a tax rate of over 50% hard work and a job can keep you well off but not wealthy. Now with stocks and all being made worthless by corrupt people who do not only not go to prison but get billions in tax dollars to continue their corruption or at least their incompetence from the tax paying citizens (that are not the poor who do not pay taxes). It is the middle class paying all the bills.

28% Fed tax + 8% state tax + 7% sales tax + 2% city tax + 28% capital gains tax + property tax + school tax (of course some of these are only on doallars spent but add up to over 50% tax on all of the middle tax

[Osteomata]

I seriously doubt that any significant percentage of the "wealthy" inherited their wealth.

You are mistaken, this is pretty fundamental financial demographics: The overwhelming majority of the wealthy come from a welathy background. This is not to say that poor or middle class can not also rise to economic wealth, but it is enormously more likely when you start there, when you are given the benfit of the best education, connections, and a little starter loan from Mom and Dad.

Look at all the "poor" people who have won the lottery and file bankruptcy a few years later. Dumb.

Yes, that is dumb, but it is also an anecdote, and anecdote is not evidence. Sounds like you are really looking for a reason to not like "the poor" as a whole.

As far as being angry at the poor, yes, for the most part I am.

Then you have serious issues, my friend.

They voted for someone with no idea why, only cause of skin color and advertising, they had no idea what the issues were or who they even were, which the electoral college is supposed to prevent that problem.

This is rather insulting, in that broad, massive generalization, paint everyone with on brush kinda of way.

Most of the poor are not willing to work hard!! .

Really insulting. You don't appear to know many poor, other than the ones presented on Fox.

Want to really blame someone, start at the unions. Fighting for people to get paid more than they deserve as unskilled workers for decades, and the consumer has to pay for it.(Enter failed American car industry).

While I can agree that unions have and will abuse the system and cause detriment to industries and endanger the ability of some industries to employ people who need jobs, I can also admit that without any sort of organized labor or collective bargaining, then corporate abuses, as frequently endorsed by successful rent-seeking legislation, has also been responsible for horrific abuses from the corporatist side as well. A balance is necessary, and simply crying "its all the unions fault" is incredibly simplisitic and one sided. The current auto industry crisis is hardly the responsibility of the unions, the marginal union rate increase to production costs is rather limited. The problem has more to do with a massive down turn in the overall economic environment, including singificantly tightend lending policies, along with legacy costs and questionable marketing strategies.

Remember, there will always be poor people,

And there will always be people who are angry at them and decice to blame them for a lot, apparently.

Everyone has that chance, and if you cannot give that chance to your child, then you have no business having children, having a child is not a right, it is a responsibility.

Ahh great, lets let the government decide child bearing rights.

- Os

[Gussie2000]

Godness !

Marlin,my friend,those are serious words you wrote there.

Being poor isn't a sin or neither a reason to 'BLAME' the poor for the economic crisis.

I can't neither share with you the facts that the poor doesn't willing to work harder,for example a co-worker got into an crash because a nurse who isn't neither a rich individual was heading home from her 2nd JOB & ended up wrecking his tahoe & her mazda cx9 because she were so tied cannot keep her eyes open.

There's a lot of people struggling hard to survive on the salary you say they don't deserve because they are unskilled & not willing to word harder,actually most of the comporations doesn't pay the right wages to their employees,but remember,without those unskilled workers there'll be no wealthy.

What if all unskilled workers in the US decide not to buy an american car they can afford any more ? will the CEO's hold a job to improve the manufacturer's sales ? i bid you no way.

And if your ask a a financial expert about improving workers salaries & wages he'l tell you : ! Man,that'll help the economy.....i mean, a lot !

Blaming the poor is the last thing i can think of,it just can't fit in my mind.

What'bout placing all the wealthy guys to work at the train's rail stations doing maintaince,mixing concrete to builtd building,or have them cleaning they own offices or what 'bout have them answering your questions when the phone line is not working & troubleshoot the lines,or prouning the threes at your neighbor before the branches became dangerous because of they weight.

The wealthy needs the poor to make $ & the poor needs the wealthy to own a $ as you,me & 90% of us does.

But when the poor stop spending as they usually do things gets bad,as how we going thru right now,nobody's spending,even the rich people.

I can imagine having donald trump doing the gardering at my backyard for few undeserved $$$$ on a hot summer day.

Unions are important part o the labor world,without it workers will be at corporarions's mercyless greed & abuse practices,but companies do have their business organizations & unions so why not the workers ?

Without unions many workers wouldn'tt have health insurance,gain a better salary or have such rights as sick days or probably retirement plans.

Personally i work for security services company as supervisor,must of the people believes that working in this field doesn't require a lot of "SKILLS" however if i didn't have antiterrorist trainning,customer service skills.didn't knew how to deal with life threatening situation such a providing CPR,how to deal when a building gets on fire & needs to address & evacuates 100's of people within that building,calling for FD & provide then fully report & conditions of the situation on timely while they on the way then i gues i don't deserve to own $ 16 an hour isn't ?

I'm not mad at you,marlin,i believe in freedom of speech & opinions,that's all about democracy & love to have this kind of learning chats,but you ceirtainly missing a piece of the puzzle.

[Marlin]

Godness !


What if all unskilled workers in the US decide not to buy an american car they can afford any more ? will the CEO's hold a job to improve the manufacturer's sales ? i bid you no way.

The wealthy needs the poor to make $ & the poor needs the wealthy to own a $ as you,me & 90% of us does.


Unions are important part o the labor world,without it workers will be at corporarions's mercyless greed & abuse practices,but companies do have their business organizations & unions so why not the workers ?

I am confused, it is the blue collar worker who spends all the money on products and makes the wealthy successful? So the corporations wouldn't make money if their employees were working for substandard income because they wouldn't be able to afford any of the products. A self controlling industry...huh, free enterprise, such a weird idea!!!. So you definitely do not need the union to fluff salaries. My father in law just retired from Ford in KC,Mo last year, he was a foreman there. They had problems with union folks not working and meeting quotas, and the employees said they were working as hard as they could. The management wanted to put in cameras at worksites just recording the work site/assembly line, not the whole scene, so personal privacy would be maintained to allow them to get rid of some the management to save money. That way, there wouldn't have to be someone watching over your shoulder in order for you to do your job, and the worker would then have proof that they were working their best. A win win for everyone?! You would think, save money on supervisors, no one over your shoulder, proof that you were doin your job....but the union said hell no!!! That wouldn't be fair. Could have been a good deal for all. At he Honda plant in Akron, most of their assembly line is automated and videotaped for quality assurance purposes, and they have no union, and when polled during the GM/Chrysler fiasco, their employees said they wanted nothing to do with a union, they were happy the way things were. My dad's company pays factory workers based on performance. They figured out the average parts per time. If you do better than average, you get paid more, less than average, you get paid less, and no, they do not adjust the average if everyone does better, it is a function over time for adjustments. An incentive to outperform your peers. Once agian, no union needed, and they go through very small amount of employee turnover, most employees have been there at least 5 years.

[tomdietrying]

Marlin,
I look forward to meeting you too! I'm getting you a case of your favorite cervesa. What kind do you like?

I see you don't understand my point "who you know is better than what you know" We'll discuss it in camp.

Last quick point, you said "They voted for someone with no idea why, only cause of skin color and advertising" First, I was not aware being a black minority gave you an advantage in America. It couldn't be because he was the more intellegent canidate could it? Wasn't it MaCain who said....the economy wasn't his strong point? And if I'm not mistaking didn't he also say.........the economy is strong......right before it collased. Second, I'm taking a wild guess, but I'm guessing you voted for Mr. Bush twice.

We'll continue the discussion under the stars of Utah. BTW - I appreciate your service to our country.

Peace.
Tom

[Marlin]

Marlin,
First, I was not aware being a black minority gave you an advantage in America. It couldn't be because he was the more intellegent canidate could it? Wasn't it MaCain who said....the economy wasn't his strong point? And if I'm not mistaking didn't he also say.........the economy is strong......right before it collased.

Are you kidding?! Have you ever heard of Affirmative Action?! Where you get extra "credit" for being a minority to give you an advantage over the majority!!!
Do you know how many scholarships there are for white males only? None, cause that would be racist and would result in a huge lawsuit.
There are banks in California that received stimulus money because they were "African American" banks not because they were in financial trouble, squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Anyway, your beloved Obama just said the same thing Mccain said a few months ago "Our economy is fundamentally sound". When Mccain said it, Obama threw a fit about how crazy he was, yet a few months in the office, and it is ok that he says it? BS.
As far as Mccain not knowing economy, you are right, good thing the president has to pick cabinet members to take care of that stuff and make recommendations on what to do. Obama is a great judge of character and expertise, seemings how several of his selections have stepped down due to scandals, fraud and so on.

Now, back to the economy. My dad is now part owner of a company, no degree, worked his *** off there for 20 years and they gave him the shares since he had become such an integral part and given so much to the business without being asked.. No union there....ever. They will close the doors before they let that happen. In order to keep good employees, they had to offer competitve salaries and incentives, which is why their company is still around while their competitors are bankrupt. The company with the best workers will win, and the only way to have the best workers is to offer the best incentives. No union needed, if you do not like your job or its benefits.........QUIT!!!!! Suck it up while you can, get some education, training or what not and work your way up. That is the right that every American has.
I think we are not on the same page about what is defined as poor. $16/hr is not even close to poor. Minimum wage is poor. That is why it is called the "minimum". I am the head of household, my wife has a degree, although she does not work out in town but rather works raising our 2 boys, so they will have a better chance at success. I am enlisted in the military, so you know I don't make squat, but we made wise decisions, waiting to have kids till we saved some money, and we knew we were gonna stay together. That would mean by what you guys have proposed, I am poor. We made sacrifices, and it is paying off now and I am living comfortably(hence my Vx). As far as a wealthy person not cleaning their own office, mowing their own lawns and so on, that is why they got educations, so they do not have to do those things. That is why when their peers were getting drunk in highschool, they were the "dorks" that were in band or Physics club. Their success came at a price.
Here is a tidbit I found from Oxford publication:

"The self-employed are the wealthy folks of America. The average net worth of a family where the head of a household works for someone else is $65,000. When it comes to the self-employed, the average net worth is $352,300.

Another interesting wealth statistic: all the wealth in America is concentrated among homeowners (two-thirds of Americans own their own homes). The difference is stunning. The average homeowner’s net worth is $171,700, while the average renter’s net worth is a measly $4,800.

Lastly, it turns out that education is valuable. The net worth where the family head didn’t graduate from high school is only $25,500. Meanwhile, the net worth where the family head has a college degree is $213,300. (Grad. school was not part of the survey.) An investment in a college education could provide a return greater than you could even expect in the stock market!
'The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.' You have heard it a million times. However, my guess is that you have never heard it from the mouth of the 'rich'. Instead, this echo has most likely bounced to your ear with its origins being an excuse. That is right...an excuse. Excuses are what many use to pacify their guilt of not accomplishing what they are capable of."

Almost all of our presidents were self made men. They were children in poor homes, raised by drunken parents or whatever, even Bill Clinton. Obama is the first president to never have had a real job, raised by his wealthy grand-parents, so as far as relating to the normal person, he is the perfect candidate, not the guy who worked his way up in the military from scratch.
I hope Obama does well, not for him, but for the nation, but I would not expect to see our current representatives around much longer. Ultimately, the president really has little power, the real power is in Congress/Senate, where all of the bills and decisions are made. They are the real problem, with all of their pet projects and ridiculous scandals and virtually no repercussions. I would not expect to see many of them make it through the next election. Well, time to get back to work...

Oh, i forgot to mention, I don't watch Fox news, only CNN, so when I do see ridiculous stuff from the liberals, it must be true and not just conservative propaganda. So no more pointing fingers about misrepresented news stories. I also grew up in one of the largest union towns in the US around all the GM workers and steel workers, half my friend's parents didn't even graduate high school, yet they always had nice cars, houses, boats, oh, I forgot to mention, they were union factory workers. Highly skilled at pushing a button on a press, that could have easily been automated and save the company millions of dollars and probably prevented bankruptcy, but the union threw a fit, look where it got them today.

[pbkid]

Most of the poor are not willing to work hard!!

ya...i go to school from 9-5 every weekday and i work 6-10...oh and i work 10-7 on the weekends...

definately not willing to work hard!

[vt_maverick]

...So is giving it to retards who already failed. Any company accepting government funding should be required to fire all staff in tenure more than 5 years.

Did you guys hear that Rick Wagoner resigned? The initial report was that he was asked by the Obama administration to step down as a condition for receiving government bailout $$$.

IMHO, GM fell apart because (a) a growing percentage of Americans prefer import designs over domestic vehicles, (b) GM made little investment in future technologies until it was too late (selling too many Tahoes while Honda and Toyota were designed hybrids), and (c) so-called "legacy" costs, including retirement and health benefits, made it difficult for GM to price its vehicles competitively without dramatically decreasing profits (read "employee pricing" and "red tag" events).

Of those three reasons, I really think (a) is the biggest problem. Carlos Ghosn took over as CEO of Nissan when it was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2000, and said at the time that "there are no problems a car company can have that can't be solved by good cars." In the first three years of his tenure Nissan created or revamped the 350Z, Altima, Maxima, Murano, Quest, Titan, G35 Sedan/Coupe, M35/45, and FX35/45 (all under the oversight of the VX's chief designer btw), and slashed costs by making hard decisions on reorganizing its supply chain (decades long partnerships were broken to cut costs). Ghosn's management team targeted three years as the timeline to return to profitability, but actually made that target in 18 months. Perhaps most dramatic was the personal accountability that the management team assumed; before they were hired they all signed contracts that required them to resign and return all of their pay if the company wasn't turned around in three years. Come up with better designs, hire better people, and make difficult decisions better and I think GM could be okay.

As for the poor people discussion, my parents taught me to work hard and do the best that I could with what I was given (personally, financially, etc.) For my parents who couldn't make it into a good college, that meant working hard at blue collar jobs and struggling to make ends meet to this day. For me who did have the qualifications to go to a good college, that has meant working hard at much higher paying white collar jobs that afford me a more comfortable financial position. People can't be judged by their economic situation, only on the composition of their personal character and work ethic. In a perfect world those two would be tied together, but unfortunately life doesn't work that way.

[nfpgasmask]

LOL, another thread I missed until it has properly ripened!

I just quickly browsed all the replies, and I think I kinda understand where Marlin is coming from but maybe the semantics are a little off.

I too have a similar resentment but it isn't a resentment of "poor" people. It is a resentment for damn near an entire nation of lazy slobs who think the world owes them something. I know SO MANY people who think that success and stability is something that you just get. My wife and I spent our 20s busting our butts and sacrificing A LOT of normally taken for granted conveniences (like cable TV, your own laundry room, 2 cars, TEVO, Blackberries, and countless other USELESS EXPENSES every other lower-middle class to poor class family has) to get where we are today. And now we have all these people whining about not having enough money but come to find out they have been living WAY over their means for WAY too long. They DESERVE to feel the bottom fall out. They do not deserve to be bailed out. The hard working people of this country should not have to help all the lazy SOBs out there who refuse to work at McDonalds.

I bet I could go out and find 50 Mexican immigrants today who would be willing to haul 150 pound bags of poop to feed their families. Try to find 50 22 year old American kids who would be willing to work that hard. THAT is the problem with this country.

Yes, there were the "baby boomers" and "x-generation" and the "me generation" and now we have the "spoiled rotten delusional generation".

Bart

[Marlin]

I bet I could go out and find 50 Mexican immigrants today who would be willing to haul 150 pound bags of poop to feed their families. Try to find 50 22 year old American kids who would be willing to work that hard. THAT is the problem with this country.

Bart

My neighbors kid won't mow lawns in the summer. It's too hot, and 15 bucks isn't enough. His parents will give him money if he needs it. Takes me about 45 minutes to mow, edge and weed eat. Thats 20 bucks an hour, and he won't do it. That, folks, is our future, World of Warcraft, if there was lawnmowing in that, he would do it for 50 gold

[nfpgasmask]

My neighbors kid won't mow lawns in the summer. It's too hot, and 15 bucks isn't enough. His parents will give him money if he needs it. Takes me about 45 minutes to mow, edge and weed eat. Thats 20 bucks an hour, and he won't do it. That, folks, is our future, World of Warcraft, if there was lawnmowing in that, he would do it for 50 gold

Dude, you couldn't be righter. It's sooo sad. My younger brother (who turns 24 this year mind you) is a textbook WoW kid. I am honestly really quite worried about his health. He was a really handsom looking dude, until about 3 years ago. WoW claimed his body and mind (oh wait, and weed). He is now GROSSLY overweight, has NO COLLEGE education, and very little work experience. I hate to say it but he is the laziest person I know, and he is my brother. I would love to help him but I refuse to help those who do not help themselves first. At this point I am simply worried about him. If he keeps going the way he is going until 30, he is gonna be really sick. And this all stems from excessive parental guilt and continued spoiling and coddling. He has been handed everything on a silver platter since he was 12 years old. But now he is a grown man and their is no excuse. Sad, just sad. I hate seeing my family as part of this problem.

Bart

[pbkid]

Dude, you couldn't be righter. It's sooo sad. My younger brother (who turns 24 this year mind you) is a textbook WoW kid. I am honestly really quite worried about his health. He was a really handsom looking dude, until about 3 years ago. WoW claimed his body and mind (oh wait, and weed). He is now GROSSLY overweight, has NO COLLEGE education, and very little work experience. I hate to say it but he is the laziest person I know, and he is my brother. I would love to help him but I refuse to help those who do not help themselves first. At this point I am simply worried about him. If he keeps going the way he is going until 30, he is gonna be really sick. And this all stems from excessive parental guilt and continued spoiling and coddling. He has been handed everything on a silver platter since he was 12 years old. But now he is a grown man and their is no excuse. Sad, just sad. I hate seeing my family as part of this problem.

Bart

this is what scares the crap outta me with my own generation...how many kids are absolutely addicted to these games that RUIN lives...its been proven to cause divorces and families to fall apart...and in this way there is some laziness in my generation...

however, bart, look at your generation (i think your in your 30's right?), and marlin im not sure how old you are, but if you were a child/teenager/college kid during the 70's...try to tell me that the generations that came out of the 70's were not completely *&#$ed...
i would much rather have a lazy generation that has to learn the hard way that they need to work than to have a generation who is forever ruined by drugs...
hmm, definately seems to be easier to criticize a younger generation once you have done your own stupid actions huh?

and no, im not saying that either of you did drugs and ruined your own future (which i assume neither of you did judging by how intelligent you gentlemen are), however, there are many from that generation that DID ruin their lives with drugs...

now look at my generation, yes their are some lazy people, but at the same time, we are the most technologically intelligent generation EVER, and that may be attributed to the 'laziness'....so dont generalize that ALL young people are lazy...
and at the same time, sometimes things that negative, turn out to be positive