**Patriotic Retirement**

[tomdietrying]

The irony is the super wealthy right now are getting taxed less per capita than you and I. The irony is the super wealthy can steal billions of dollars from thousands of people with now real consequences. The irony is hard work does pay off, but who you know pays off much better.
Peace.
Tom

[johnnyapollo]

The Fair Tax would level the playing field for everyone.

-- John

[Marlin]

The Fair Tax would level the playing field for everyone.

-- John

True, true, if everyone paid 12.5%, regardless if you make $6/hr or $1000, it would be fair.
As far as the wealthy being wealthy, you are right, there is not a person in the world worth 10 million dollars a year or anything ridiculous like that unless they own the business. But before the outrage against corporate personnel, lets look at our sports teams. Notice they have kept their mouths shut the whole time. They are being paid mostly by the lower/middle class America, kind of makes me wonder where our priorities are, yet no one complains about them.
As for hard work paying off, you are 100% correct, unfortunately, most Americans think they are owed something for being American. I did not drink,do drugs, knock up my girlfriend, skip school and so on and that is why I am successful. My wife lived at home and worked her way through college and got her bachelors in about 2.5 years. Hard work does pay off.
Voting your tax dollars into your own pocket is a bad idea. So is giving it to retards who already failed. Any company accepting government funding should be required to fire all staff in tenure more than 5 years.
And one more thing, the wealthy generally become wealthy for a reason...hard work, sacrifice and being smarter than those around them. Can't get wealthy and stay wealthy by being dumb, or lazy.

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

[tomdietrying]

The wealthy get wealthy for a reason. Yes, the wealthy who made the initial money. Let's talk about the offspring of the wealthy individual who doesn't work hard. There are a lot of people who fall into that catorgory. I can promise you they make more money than you and put together, and it's not because of their work ethic. Why do you think that is?

I know you worked hard to get where you are, but you seem angry at people who are poorer than you. You do realize there are hard working people who come from loving families who are going to stay poor. There is no moving up for some people. Is that called laziness or something else?

Peace.
Tom

[Marlin]

The wealthy get wealthy for a reason. Yes, the wealthy who made the initial money. Let's talk about the offspring of the wealthy individual who doesn't work hard. There are a lot of people who fall into that catorgory. I can promise you they make more money than you and put together, and it's not because of their work ethic. Why do you think that is?

I know you worked hard to get where you are, but you seem angry at people who are poorer than you. You do realize there are hard working people who come from loving families who are going to stay poor. There is no moving up for some people. Is that called laziness or something else?

Peace.
Tom

I seriously doubt that any significant percentage of the "wealthy" inherited their wealth. Matter of fact, I would venture that a huge majority of them have college degrees, and did not have children till they were at least 25. As I said, "A fool and his money are soon parted." Look at all the "poor" people who have won the lottery and file bankruptcy a few years later. Dumb.
As far as being angry at the poor, yes, for the most part I am. They voted for someone with no idea why, only cause of skin color and advertising, they had no idea what the issues were or who they even were, which the electoral college is supposed to prevent that problem.
Most of the poor are not willing to work hard!! The Mcds by my house is hiring, as well as most of the other fast food places, because no one will work there because they do not pay enough, yet we have record high unemployment rates!!! That makes me furious. I work over 70 hours a week, and I am fine. It will not kill someone to work two jobs, and God forbid...............weekends!!!!! Want to really blame someone, start at the unions. Fighting for people to get paid more than they deserve as unskilled workers for decades, and the consumer has to pay for it.(Enter failed American car industry)
Remember, there will always be poor people, tis the nature of the beast, and although I was not poor as a kid, we certainly were not rich, I got waivers to pay for after school activites based on grades and behavior, discount lunches and so on. As I said, I made tough choices, didn't do stupid *****, and voila, here I am, doin alright.
Everyone has that chance, and if you cannot give that chance to your child, then you have no business having children, having a child is not a right, it is a responsibility.

PS-Tom, I enjoy our bantering and look forward to meeting you at Moab. All the guys I work with (who also work 70 hours a week and weekends, feel the same way I do, so no good arguments to be had there) I already packed up your shocks too so I will not forget them!

[circmand]

Sure you have a few Bill Gates who invented something great but most of his wealth is in his own stock. Most of the wealthy inherited such as Trump and the Hiltons their grand parents were robber barons in the past an dhanded down their wealth sure the kids went to college and graduated after their were endowments and buildings paid for by their rich parents. At a tax rate of over 50% hard work and a job can keep you well off but not wealthy. Now with stocks and all being made worthless by corrupt people who do not only not go to prison but get billions in tax dollars to continue their corruption or at least their incompetence from the tax paying citizens (that are not the poor who do not pay taxes). It is the middle class paying all the bills.

28% Fed tax + 8% state tax + 7% sales tax + 2% city tax + 28% capital gains tax + property tax + school tax (of course some of these are only on doallars spent but add up to over 50% tax on all of the middle tax

[Osteomata]

I seriously doubt that any significant percentage of the "wealthy" inherited their wealth.

You are mistaken, this is pretty fundamental financial demographics: The overwhelming majority of the wealthy come from a welathy background. This is not to say that poor or middle class can not also rise to economic wealth, but it is enormously more likely when you start there, when you are given the benfit of the best education, connections, and a little starter loan from Mom and Dad.

Look at all the "poor" people who have won the lottery and file bankruptcy a few years later. Dumb.

Yes, that is dumb, but it is also an anecdote, and anecdote is not evidence. Sounds like you are really looking for a reason to not like "the poor" as a whole.

As far as being angry at the poor, yes, for the most part I am.

Then you have serious issues, my friend.

They voted for someone with no idea why, only cause of skin color and advertising, they had no idea what the issues were or who they even were, which the electoral college is supposed to prevent that problem.

This is rather insulting, in that broad, massive generalization, paint everyone with on brush kinda of way.

Most of the poor are not willing to work hard!! .

Really insulting. You don't appear to know many poor, other than the ones presented on Fox.

Want to really blame someone, start at the unions. Fighting for people to get paid more than they deserve as unskilled workers for decades, and the consumer has to pay for it.(Enter failed American car industry).

While I can agree that unions have and will abuse the system and cause detriment to industries and endanger the ability of some industries to employ people who need jobs, I can also admit that without any sort of organized labor or collective bargaining, then corporate abuses, as frequently endorsed by successful rent-seeking legislation, has also been responsible for horrific abuses from the corporatist side as well. A balance is necessary, and simply crying "its all the unions fault" is incredibly simplisitic and one sided. The current auto industry crisis is hardly the responsibility of the unions, the marginal union rate increase to production costs is rather limited. The problem has more to do with a massive down turn in the overall economic environment, including singificantly tightend lending policies, along with legacy costs and questionable marketing strategies.

Remember, there will always be poor people,

And there will always be people who are angry at them and decice to blame them for a lot, apparently.

Everyone has that chance, and if you cannot give that chance to your child, then you have no business having children, having a child is not a right, it is a responsibility.

Ahh great, lets let the government decide child bearing rights.

- Os

[tomdietrying]

Marlin,
I look forward to meeting you too! I'm getting you a case of your favorite cervesa. What kind do you like?

I see you don't understand my point "who you know is better than what you know" We'll discuss it in camp.

Last quick point, you said "They voted for someone with no idea why, only cause of skin color and advertising" First, I was not aware being a black minority gave you an advantage in America. It couldn't be because he was the more intellegent canidate could it? Wasn't it MaCain who said....the economy wasn't his strong point? And if I'm not mistaking didn't he also say.........the economy is strong......right before it collased. Second, I'm taking a wild guess, but I'm guessing you voted for Mr. Bush twice.

We'll continue the discussion under the stars of Utah. BTW - I appreciate your service to our country.

Peace.
Tom

[pbkid]

Most of the poor are not willing to work hard!!

ya...i go to school from 9-5 every weekday and i work 6-10...oh and i work 10-7 on the weekends...

definately not willing to work hard!

[vt_maverick]

...So is giving it to retards who already failed. Any company accepting government funding should be required to fire all staff in tenure more than 5 years.

Did you guys hear that Rick Wagoner resigned? The initial report was that he was asked by the Obama administration to step down as a condition for receiving government bailout $$$.

IMHO, GM fell apart because (a) a growing percentage of Americans prefer import designs over domestic vehicles, (b) GM made little investment in future technologies until it was too late (selling too many Tahoes while Honda and Toyota were designed hybrids), and (c) so-called "legacy" costs, including retirement and health benefits, made it difficult for GM to price its vehicles competitively without dramatically decreasing profits (read "employee pricing" and "red tag" events).

Of those three reasons, I really think (a) is the biggest problem. Carlos Ghosn took over as CEO of Nissan when it was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2000, and said at the time that "there are no problems a car company can have that can't be solved by good cars." In the first three years of his tenure Nissan created or revamped the 350Z, Altima, Maxima, Murano, Quest, Titan, G35 Sedan/Coupe, M35/45, and FX35/45 (all under the oversight of the VX's chief designer btw), and slashed costs by making hard decisions on reorganizing its supply chain (decades long partnerships were broken to cut costs). Ghosn's management team targeted three years as the timeline to return to profitability, but actually made that target in 18 months. Perhaps most dramatic was the personal accountability that the management team assumed; before they were hired they all signed contracts that required them to resign and return all of their pay if the company wasn't turned around in three years. Come up with better designs, hire better people, and make difficult decisions better and I think GM could be okay.

As for the poor people discussion, my parents taught me to work hard and do the best that I could with what I was given (personally, financially, etc.) For my parents who couldn't make it into a good college, that meant working hard at blue collar jobs and struggling to make ends meet to this day. For me who did have the qualifications to go to a good college, that has meant working hard at much higher paying white collar jobs that afford me a more comfortable financial position. People can't be judged by their economic situation, only on the composition of their personal character and work ethic. In a perfect world those two would be tied together, but unfortunately life doesn't work that way.

[nfpgasmask]

LOL, another thread I missed until it has properly ripened!

I just quickly browsed all the replies, and I think I kinda understand where Marlin is coming from but maybe the semantics are a little off.

I too have a similar resentment but it isn't a resentment of "poor" people. It is a resentment for damn near an entire nation of lazy slobs who think the world owes them something. I know SO MANY people who think that success and stability is something that you just get. My wife and I spent our 20s busting our butts and sacrificing A LOT of normally taken for granted conveniences (like cable TV, your own laundry room, 2 cars, TEVO, Blackberries, and countless other USELESS EXPENSES every other lower-middle class to poor class family has) to get where we are today. And now we have all these people whining about not having enough money but come to find out they have been living WAY over their means for WAY too long. They DESERVE to feel the bottom fall out. They do not deserve to be bailed out. The hard working people of this country should not have to help all the lazy SOBs out there who refuse to work at McDonalds.

I bet I could go out and find 50 Mexican immigrants today who would be willing to haul 150 pound bags of poop to feed their families. Try to find 50 22 year old American kids who would be willing to work that hard. THAT is the problem with this country.

Yes, there were the "baby boomers" and "x-generation" and the "me generation" and now we have the "spoiled rotten delusional generation".

Bart

[Marlin]

I bet I could go out and find 50 Mexican immigrants today who would be willing to haul 150 pound bags of poop to feed their families. Try to find 50 22 year old American kids who would be willing to work that hard. THAT is the problem with this country.

Bart

My neighbors kid won't mow lawns in the summer. It's too hot, and 15 bucks isn't enough. His parents will give him money if he needs it. Takes me about 45 minutes to mow, edge and weed eat. Thats 20 bucks an hour, and he won't do it. That, folks, is our future, World of Warcraft, if there was lawnmowing in that, he would do it for 50 gold

[nfpgasmask]

My neighbors kid won't mow lawns in the summer. It's too hot, and 15 bucks isn't enough. His parents will give him money if he needs it. Takes me about 45 minutes to mow, edge and weed eat. Thats 20 bucks an hour, and he won't do it. That, folks, is our future, World of Warcraft, if there was lawnmowing in that, he would do it for 50 gold

Dude, you couldn't be righter. It's sooo sad. My younger brother (who turns 24 this year mind you) is a textbook WoW kid. I am honestly really quite worried about his health. He was a really handsom looking dude, until about 3 years ago. WoW claimed his body and mind (oh wait, and weed). He is now GROSSLY overweight, has NO COLLEGE education, and very little work experience. I hate to say it but he is the laziest person I know, and he is my brother. I would love to help him but I refuse to help those who do not help themselves first. At this point I am simply worried about him. If he keeps going the way he is going until 30, he is gonna be really sick. And this all stems from excessive parental guilt and continued spoiling and coddling. He has been handed everything on a silver platter since he was 12 years old. But now he is a grown man and their is no excuse. Sad, just sad. I hate seeing my family as part of this problem.

Bart

[pbkid]

Yes, there were the "baby boomers" and "x-generation" and the "me generation" and now we have the "spoiled rotten delusional generation".

Bart

huh, thats interesting...how come as people get older they always think the people younger than them are more stupid or treated differently then THEY were when they were children....maybe because america is full of hypocrits?

[nfpgasmask]

huh, thats interesting...how come as people get older they always think the people younger than them are more stupid or treated differently then THEY were when they were children....maybe because america is full of hypocrits?

Jack, I never said younger people were stupid. And obviously not EVERY SINGLE KID in America today is a spoiled brat that isn't willing to work. Hell, I know plenty of 35 year olds that are that way! I was just saying that there is a growing trend of entitlement in this country. Like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of kids out there today that being raised right, going to school, getting good jobs, etc.

What do you mean by treated differently? I don't really think kids are treated differently. However I do think they are exposed to a lot of different things today that may be shaping their points of view. I think TV and the media play a big part in this, and I definitely believe proper parenting has gone by the wayside in the last 20 years. Teenage kids are growing up on Rob & Big and Real Housewives and this is what they think life is about. Not busting tail and working hard. Sure, my grandfather said the same thing about the children of the 1980s, and you know, he was right. Things were changing, and changing for the worse. And things today are still changing, and still getting worse.

Bart