HHO Generator (Gas mileage thread)

[FreemeLabs]

The branch of the government who tests these things has reported none of them work to a measurable degree that cant be duplicated by driving responsibly. Mythbusters tested several of these MPG increasers and none of them worked. If what you have is so easy and works so good why cant a reputable 3rd party duplicate it and back it up. And I am not talking some back yard mechanic on utube.

A lot of people have asked me that, and it is a valid question. All I can say is I've spoken with many reputable third-party mechanics, and some are in strong approval of HHO generators in vehicles, and others are opponents. The opponents have either never tried it or had a bad experience with one of the pieces of junk on the market, or they tested the technology before it was developed enough to be used effectively.

As for Mythbusters, I don't know specifically what they tested, so I can't really regard that.

When we first heard about these systems, one of my business partners and I asked the question: If these really work, why isn't this a huge product? Everyone needs better gas mileage. The answer, we found, was a culmination of things: 1. Lack of quality in current product offerings. 2. The HHO unit overheating. 3. Lots of negative mass media coverage of the product. 4. Horrible marketing by existing HHO generator distributors. 5. Unprofessional design and difficult installation. 6. Laborious maintenance.

I called up a friend of mine that I trust that had mentioned he had been looking into these systems and attempting to develop something better. After speaking with him and seeing a very successful operating unit on my brother's SUV, we decided it warranted greater time investment. In the following, months, I was convinced of the systems effectiveness. We overcame the overheating issue through an intelligent design, and our system has a much more professional design than anything else out there (see the videos in my recent post). Furthermore, we are working on engineering the best pre-wired setup to make installation as simple as possible, and we're developing the best electrolyte solutions in an effort to make it easier to maintain.

I won't go into the vested interest the government has in opposing this technology, but it's there. We know there is a lot of negative public opinion out there, and it's a difficult marketing environment. So we decided to offer a 15-day satisfaction guarantee to overcome the doubt int the market and to allow our customers the ease of mind of being able to purchase, install, and test the system to make sure it is genuinely increasing fuel economy and operating to satisfaction.

We don't want to sell something if it doesn't work for you. That's why we have the guarantee. We are developing a business that is built to last on a solid technology that hasn't been well-implemented to this point.

I hope someone who is reputable and creditable on this forum buys a unit and tests it so that there will be conclusion to the question. And like I said, if it doesn't work, send it back within 15 days, and we'll refund your money minus shipping.

[Ldub]

We don't want to sell something if it doesn't work for you. That's why we have the guarantee. We are developing a business that is built to last on a solid technology that hasn't been well-implemented to this point.

I hope someone who is reputable and creditable on this forum buys a unit and tests it so that there will be conclusion to the question. And like I said, if it doesn't work, send it back within 15 days, and we'll refund your money minus shipping.

Call me skeptical, but a fifteen day guarantee???

I can't think of a single other well engineered product on the planet that isn't guaranteed for at least a month, with 90 days being closer to the average minimum.

There are others here who have made claims of wonderful increases in mileage on "other" vehicles that they own, but somehow, the technology hasn't worked on their VehiCROSS...

Like I said, call me skepticable...

[FreemeLabs]

Just for clarity,

The 15-day satisfaction guarantee is not for the purpose of guaranteeing longevity; longevity isn't buyers' #1 concern. Their #1 concern is whether it improves their gas mileage. It doesn't take 90 or 60 or even 30 days to figure that out. It takes about 100 miles of driving. That's why we offer a 15-day satisfaction guarantee.

As for whether it works on a Vehicross or not, I know that it COULD work on a Vehicross, but I don't know the in-depth mechanics and electronics of Vehicross to know what's inhibiting improvement in mpg. It could be a sensor system that exists that wasn't properly regarded. The MAF, MAP, and O2 sensors can all negatively affect and even nullify or invert an HHO generators influence on gas mileage. For very few vehicles, I think it is possible the electrical manipulation required makes it cost-prohibitive to re-engineer the vehicle to accept HHO, and the Vehicross MIGHT be one of those, but without know much about them, I couldn't say.

However, we are working on a comprehensive solution that plugs into the OBD-I/II port that will allow easy and immediate manipulation of the electrical inputs to ensure that the vehicle accepts and uses HHO efficiently.

By the way, we really appreciate your skepticism. It encourages us to double- and triple-check our findings and then make it obviously true through demonstration. I would ask, though, that your skepticism be a union of openness and scrutiny rather than mere criticism. Without both ingredients, real progress is impossible.

[FreemeLabs]

Just for clarity,

The 15-day satisfaction guarantee is not for the purpose of guaranteeing longevity; longevity isn't buyers' #1 concern. Their #1 concern is whether it improves their gas mileage. It doesn't take 90 or 60 or even 30 days to figure that out. It takes about 100 miles of driving. That's why we offer a 15-day satisfaction guarantee.

As for whether it works on a Vehicross or not, I know that it COULD work on a Vehicross, but I don't know the in-depth mechanics and electronics of Vehicross to know what's inhibiting improvement in mpg. It could be a sensor system that exists that wasn't properly regarded. The MAF, MAP, and O2 sensors can all negatively affect and even nullify or invert an HHO generators influence on gas mileage. For very few vehicles, I think it is possible the electrical manipulation required makes it cost-prohibitive to re-engineer the vehicle to accept HHO, and the Vehicross MIGHT be one of those, but without know much about them, I couldn't say.

However, we are working on a comprehensive solution that plugs into the OBD-I/II port that will allow easy and immediate manipulation of the electrical inputs to ensure that the vehicle accepts and uses HHO efficiently.

By the way, we really appreciate your skepticism. It encourages us to double- and triple-check our findings and then make it obviously true through demonstration. I would ask, though, that your skepticism be a union of openness and scrutiny rather than mere criticism. Without both ingredients, real progress is impossible.

Sincerely,

Kurt Theobald
CEO
FreemeLabs.com
417.824.0950
kurt@freemelabs.com

[Hotsauce]

I do not believe that you can use mechanical energy to create electricity(the alternator) use that electricity to split water into its base components, and then burn that to achieve a net gain of energy.

You have much energy lost as heat at every conversion for starters.

John C.

[twistedsymphony]

I do not believe that you can use mechanical energy to create electricity(the alternator) use that electricity to split water into its base components, and then burn that to achieve a net gain of energy.

You have much energy lost as heat at every conversion for starters.

John C.

That's absolutely correct. From a purely mathematical standpoint the concept of an HHO generator is bankrupt because you waste more energy generating it than you put back into the system, plus, as you stated, there are losses at every step.

Sport Compact Car last month had a really good analysis of these system and the basic math behind it in layman's terms.

I've not tested it myself but I know people I trust that have. So far the sources I personally consider to be reputable that have tested it have all come to the conclusion that it's snake oil. And the only ones that saw a reduction in fuel consumption were able to attribute it to the system simply leaning out the A/F ratio which could be easily done without the HHO generator, but most people don't do that because it's quite bad for your engine.

They lean out the mixture because most of them pipe in the HHO after the MAF sensor so the engine computer doesn't realize there is more air in the mixture... other "systems" play with the MAF sensor readings to again fool the ECU into thinking there is less air than there actually is. Since the engine thinks there is less air it injects less gas which means you're using less gas, but it also means you've got less power and the Air to fuel ratio is way out of spec for what the engine was designed for.

As for the HHO itself no only do the pocket generators not produce anywhere near enough of the stuff to make a measurable difference the electrical energy required to produce it is significantly more than the energy you get out of it in your engine, even if you assumed that there were no additional losses in the system (which there are).

I didn't pay these systems any mind for a while, but I had a bunch of people I know keep pestering me to look into them, so I did, and this is the impression I walked away with.

I encourage people to do their own testing and research and come to their own conclusions. I even encourage people to try to change my mind, but I will say if you hope to have any success at that you'll need provide me with the math as to why it supposedly works. For what it's worth I'm a Mechanical Engineer in the Aerospace Industry.

[Ldub]

Just for clarity,

The 15-day satisfaction guarantee is not for the purpose of guaranteeing longevity; longevity isn't buyers' #1 concern. Their #1 concern is whether it improves their gas mileage. It doesn't take 90 or 60 or even 30 days to figure that out. It takes about 100 miles of driving. That's why we offer a 15-day satisfaction guarantee.

As for whether it works on a Vehicross or not, I know that it COULD work on a Vehicross, but I don't know the in-depth mechanics and electronics of Vehicross to know what's inhibiting improvement in mpg. It could be a sensor system that exists that wasn't properly regarded. The MAF, MAP, and O2 sensors can all negatively affect and even nullify or invert an HHO generators influence on gas mileage. For very few vehicles, I think it is possible the electrical manipulation required makes it cost-prohibitive to re-engineer the vehicle to accept HHO, and the Vehicross MIGHT be one of those, but without know much about them, I couldn't say.

However, we are working on a comprehensive solution that plugs into the OBD-I/II port that will allow easy and immediate manipulation of the electrical inputs to ensure that the vehicle accepts and uses HHO efficiently.

By the way, we really appreciate your skepticism. It encourages us to double- and triple-check our findings and then make it obviously true through demonstration. I would ask, though, that your skepticism be a union of openness and scrutiny rather than mere criticism. Without both ingredients, real progress is impossible.

Sincerely,

Kurt Theobald
CEO
FreemeLabs.com
417.824.0950
kurt@freemelabs.com

Nice words, but if your product is all that, then a "In writing-90 day-money back-full satisfaction guarantee" should be no problem.
I know it's apples & oranges, but I can get that on Harbor Freight el-cheapo tools.

[Hotsauce]

So, you just need a bigger unit and no gasoline. Of course this won't work.

This reminds me of most of the perpetual energy scams I've seen over the years.

Stop and calculate how much hydrogen is produced...Very little mass. Very little caloric value as fuel. Now look at BSFC curve of engine. It takes about half a pound of fuel per hour to make one horsepower.

John C.

[VehiGAZ]

What is this no-VX snake-oil huckster still doing on this board?! Can we please get a ban on this 15-day turd?

[Francesco Rizzo]

You can find Nasa's test from hydrogen and fuel mixtures here but that link was provided from comments left on this popular mechanics article which has a pretty skeptical author. I skipped through the pdf file but saw mostly talk of emissions and effect on the way fuel was burned, not actual mpg figures. People who commented on the article in the second link said that nasa used 100 times the hydrogen then HHO can provide and still didn't get magajor MPG increases. I’m also really skeptical.. and put my stock into known, proven technologies: Little motor with just-e-nuff hp wrapped in a scion Xa shell.
Funny thing though, that report was writen in 1977 Nasa and included "in view of decreasing petroleum resources, a system using 100-percent reformed methanol might be an interesting supplementary
or alternative fuel system"

[Moncha]

OK, being that this thread was not started by "Kurt Theobald" from "FreemeLabs.com" I won't actually consider this a spam thread. I'm not sure how he got onto this thread so fast though. The OP, crager34 had a legit question and I understand that "Kurt" was answering it. I'm watching this one closely as it seems to be getting out of hand.

Keep it clean and fair and I won't lock it.

[VehiGAZ]

Thanks for keeping an eye on things for us, Scott! My guess is that one of the VX'ers monkeying around with an HHO generator invited this guy to post some backup info.

Personally, I don't need to know anything more about the product and the seller other than the "15 day warranty" to be quite certain it's junk.

[FreemeLabs]

I just wanted to let everyone on this forum know that Crager34 has agreed to work with me on installing a Freeme system on his VX to see what kind of results we can achieve. These results will be posted on this forum, good or bad. So we will put an end to this debate with proof in the pudding in either direction.

Also, thank you Moncha for your oversight of this thread. I hope you note that I have been nothing but entirely civil and inviting of criticism.

Please stand by for progress and results postings.

[VehiGAZ]

Why don't you let Crager post the results of your experiments.

We know him, and we don't trust you, so... you know...