HHO Generator (Gas mileage thread)

[Ldub]

Just for clarity,

The 15-day satisfaction guarantee is not for the purpose of guaranteeing longevity; longevity isn't buyers' #1 concern. Their #1 concern is whether it improves their gas mileage. It doesn't take 90 or 60 or even 30 days to figure that out. It takes about 100 miles of driving. That's why we offer a 15-day satisfaction guarantee.

As for whether it works on a Vehicross or not, I know that it COULD work on a Vehicross, but I don't know the in-depth mechanics and electronics of Vehicross to know what's inhibiting improvement in mpg. It could be a sensor system that exists that wasn't properly regarded. The MAF, MAP, and O2 sensors can all negatively affect and even nullify or invert an HHO generators influence on gas mileage. For very few vehicles, I think it is possible the electrical manipulation required makes it cost-prohibitive to re-engineer the vehicle to accept HHO, and the Vehicross MIGHT be one of those, but without know much about them, I couldn't say.

However, we are working on a comprehensive solution that plugs into the OBD-I/II port that will allow easy and immediate manipulation of the electrical inputs to ensure that the vehicle accepts and uses HHO efficiently.

By the way, we really appreciate your skepticism. It encourages us to double- and triple-check our findings and then make it obviously true through demonstration. I would ask, though, that your skepticism be a union of openness and scrutiny rather than mere criticism. Without both ingredients, real progress is impossible.

Sincerely,

Kurt Theobald
CEO
FreemeLabs.com
417.824.0950
kurt@freemelabs.com

Nice words, but if your product is all that, then a "In writing-90 day-money back-full satisfaction guarantee" should be no problem.
I know it's apples & oranges, but I can get that on Harbor Freight el-cheapo tools.

[Hotsauce]

So, you just need a bigger unit and no gasoline. Of course this won't work.

This reminds me of most of the perpetual energy scams I've seen over the years.

Stop and calculate how much hydrogen is produced...Very little mass. Very little caloric value as fuel. Now look at BSFC curve of engine. It takes about half a pound of fuel per hour to make one horsepower.

John C.

[VehiGAZ]

What is this no-VX snake-oil huckster still doing on this board?! Can we please get a ban on this 15-day turd?

[Francesco Rizzo]

You can find Nasa's test from hydrogen and fuel mixtures here but that link was provided from comments left on this popular mechanics article which has a pretty skeptical author. I skipped through the pdf file but saw mostly talk of emissions and effect on the way fuel was burned, not actual mpg figures. People who commented on the article in the second link said that nasa used 100 times the hydrogen then HHO can provide and still didn't get magajor MPG increases. I’m also really skeptical.. and put my stock into known, proven technologies: Little motor with just-e-nuff hp wrapped in a scion Xa shell.
Funny thing though, that report was writen in 1977 Nasa and included "in view of decreasing petroleum resources, a system using 100-percent reformed methanol might be an interesting supplementary
or alternative fuel system"

[FreemeLabs]

First, HHO-support systems are not intended to propel the vehicle. That is a common misunderstanding. At this point in time, they are merely supporting the more complete burn of the fossil fuel. Right now, standard auto engines only burn somewhere between 60-80% of the fuel, with the remaining unburned fuel being burned as waste by the catalytic converter. HHO introduction improves the burn to over 90% in the cylinders, allowing more of the fossil fuel to be put to work.

So, your opposition is actually completely true: It would take A LOT of HHO to make a significant different in gas mileage if it were being used for propulsion, but if the HHO is being used to make more of the fossil fuel usable, significant gains in fuel economy is reasonable, and that is the science between our HHO systems.

Really, though, if I were really after suckering people into buying these units, why would I be spending my time trying to enlighten this forum to the truth about HHO? If I were a scheister and smart, I'd pick easy targets, not the highly resistant audience to whom I address these words. But my team is dedicated to getting the grassroots mechanics market involved in supporting the development and implementation of HHO, and THAT is why I spend my time trying to win your support for this technology.

I'm asking you to give the idea a chance, and keep in mind the fundamental principles upon which this technology is based. It's not about propelling the vehicle; it's about burning gas and diesel more efficiently.

I think I've said enough to get those who are open to look into it further, and to those who are not, I could continue to rebuttal and defend the technology, and you would never receive it... For those who are open, you have my contact information, and you have plenty of controversial information on both sides of the conversation on the net.

I'll close by simply saying: Above all, I'm committed to doing business virtuously. Aside from this business, I own a web development firm and an auto dealership, both of which I hold to ethical and moral standards high above what the market demands. I know this technology is effective and practical because I've witnessed it working first-hand. Either, I'm an amazingly greedy, amoral man, or I'm telling the truth.

Feel free to contact me.

Kurt Theobald
CEO
Freeme Labs
417.824.0950
kurt@freemelabs.com
http://www.freemelabs.com

[bentcipher]

Alright, I've had enough of this... Kurt, please excuse some of these comments, they're only representing the views of their respective owners.

I always thought of Vehicross as being revolutionary and ahead of it's time. Back in 99-01 these things truly possessed a lot of qualities that many did not/could not embrace and only a few of us could appreciate. Those of us that did, cherish this vehicle to this very day, 7-9 years later.

Now, when Isuzu built this model, they were banking on buyers with open minds that were willing to explore boundaries of an SUV/offroad market. But the market was tough and unfortunately, that wasn't enough to keep Vx production alive for longer than 3 years.

What Freeme Labs is trying is not all that different. They've got a product that they claim to have been able to make work and believe is quite revolutionary. I cannot believe that we have so many people willing to shut their minds to even the idea of this working... the same people that opened their minds to an "outside the box" vehicle like the VehiCROSS.

From where I'm sitting, I see at least one Vx owner that was able to make this work, more or less - so this cannot be entirely "snake oil". Additionally, I'm not seeing any posts from anyone that have attempted the same with no positive results - and I'm not talking backyard mechanic kinda stuff. So either you shut your mouth or buy the damn product through PayPal, disprove it, and then return it. But don't give this guy a hard time because he might have something you're not willing to accept. We need more vendors like this to step forward and offer quality aftermarket products for our aging fleet.

Besides, a forum is the worst place to scam. People are pretty close and if you scam one, the whole community is on your arse.

- d

P.S. And no, he doesn't have to own a Vx.

[Hotsauce]

I know!

Lets use a solar panel to power a lightbulb to generate more electricity!

We'll get free light and power forever!

Uh, no. That won't work either for the same reasons.

John C.

[don moore]

hey Kurt..do you own or have or looking to get a VX????
or is this a spam message.

[twistedsymphony]

I do not believe that you can use mechanical energy to create electricity(the alternator) use that electricity to split water into its base components, and then burn that to achieve a net gain of energy.

You have much energy lost as heat at every conversion for starters.

John C.

That's absolutely correct. From a purely mathematical standpoint the concept of an HHO generator is bankrupt because you waste more energy generating it than you put back into the system, plus, as you stated, there are losses at every step.

Sport Compact Car last month had a really good analysis of these system and the basic math behind it in layman's terms.

I've not tested it myself but I know people I trust that have. So far the sources I personally consider to be reputable that have tested it have all come to the conclusion that it's snake oil. And the only ones that saw a reduction in fuel consumption were able to attribute it to the system simply leaning out the A/F ratio which could be easily done without the HHO generator, but most people don't do that because it's quite bad for your engine.

They lean out the mixture because most of them pipe in the HHO after the MAF sensor so the engine computer doesn't realize there is more air in the mixture... other "systems" play with the MAF sensor readings to again fool the ECU into thinking there is less air than there actually is. Since the engine thinks there is less air it injects less gas which means you're using less gas, but it also means you've got less power and the Air to fuel ratio is way out of spec for what the engine was designed for.

As for the HHO itself no only do the pocket generators not produce anywhere near enough of the stuff to make a measurable difference the electrical energy required to produce it is significantly more than the energy you get out of it in your engine, even if you assumed that there were no additional losses in the system (which there are).

I didn't pay these systems any mind for a while, but I had a bunch of people I know keep pestering me to look into them, so I did, and this is the impression I walked away with.

I encourage people to do their own testing and research and come to their own conclusions. I even encourage people to try to change my mind, but I will say if you hope to have any success at that you'll need provide me with the math as to why it supposedly works. For what it's worth I'm a Mechanical Engineer in the Aerospace Industry.

[Moncha]

OK, being that this thread was not started by "Kurt Theobald" from "FreemeLabs.com" I won't actually consider this a spam thread. I'm not sure how he got onto this thread so fast though. The OP, crager34 had a legit question and I understand that "Kurt" was answering it. I'm watching this one closely as it seems to be getting out of hand.

Keep it clean and fair and I won't lock it.

[VehiGAZ]

Thanks for keeping an eye on things for us, Scott! My guess is that one of the VX'ers monkeying around with an HHO generator invited this guy to post some backup info.

Personally, I don't need to know anything more about the product and the seller other than the "15 day warranty" to be quite certain it's junk.

[FreemeLabs]

I just wanted to let everyone on this forum know that Crager34 has agreed to work with me on installing a Freeme system on his VX to see what kind of results we can achieve. These results will be posted on this forum, good or bad. So we will put an end to this debate with proof in the pudding in either direction.

Also, thank you Moncha for your oversight of this thread. I hope you note that I have been nothing but entirely civil and inviting of criticism.

Please stand by for progress and results postings.

[VehiGAZ]

Why don't you let Crager post the results of your experiments.

We know him, and we don't trust you, so... you know...

[LittleBeast]

Now, when Isuzu built this model, they were banking on buyers with open minds that were willing to explore boundaries of an SUV/offroad market. But the market was tough and unfortunately, that wasn't enough to keep Vx production alive for longer than 3 years.

Are you serious? The molds that Isuzu stamped our body panels out of were only good for under 5,000 units, it was never Isuzu's intention to mass produce the VX for years to come, it was a promotional gamble to grab fellow motorist attention and get them into the Isuzu showroom, where no they would not plop down over $35,000 for a 2 door SUV, but they would have them in the showroom with opportunity to show them the Trooper, or other more main stream Isuzu's. Why in the world do you think we have a ISUZU logo the size of a billboard on the rear of the VX? So there would be no doubt which dealership to go to and check those things out. "The market was tough and wasn't enough to keep VX production alive?" Oh come on you don't really believe that do you? They were not planning on producing any more than they did, lol, wow, I thought everyone on here at least knew that much.

[VCAMILO]

My co-worker (sits next to me at work) built a system a month back and installed it on his Expedition. He gained about 20% better milage. He only needs to fininsh the cooling of the water and the system is complete. He has been able to maintain his water at a normal level for over three hours. I think he needs to bore out some whole for better water flow and efficiancy. Im next in line for his install; In the next few weeks or months.