MPG or Not MPG

[Joe_Black]

The real interesting thing is that the all the automobiles and trucks in the world once only ran on either ethanol, electricity or vegetable oil. Then a new "alternative" fuel was introduced: Gasoline. So, the big question is why can't we do what we did a hundred years ago? Look to the wallets of the world governments and you'll have your answer.

In the meantime, the VX is a 4000+ pound truck and it was never designed with an eye on economy. Hybrids? Don't buy the lie! They still burn gas and people who get them tend to drive more since they get better economy thus using more gas and producing higher emissions than they did before they got the hybrid. But they are the media darlings and make everyone feel better when they tank up, and that's exactly what they were built to do and why the petroleum companies back them.

The answers are out there, they aren't secret, and best of all they've been right under our nose for a century.

Here's an interesting fact: Porsche got his start building electric cars starting in 1898. Yes, 1898. He sold over 300 including truck and lorry variants through 1906. Here's the first model, the System Lohner-Porsche (you can clearly see the hub motors on the front wheels)...



And we can't figure this stuff out now? We all know the answer to that one!

[So-CalVX]

I know I may be off the original topic but we all know the problem and it can't be stopped... money is the life juice of the world and people will do anything to get it. electric cars were the best thing more than a hundred years ago and then less than ten as well, but the companies weren't making any profit off of them. you had no oil to change, no lubricants and the brakes lasted forever because the engine slowed the vehicle fast enough for the average deceleration. so they killed them off and decided to go with hybrids... who cares about hybrids... i want my Electric. they were here for a bit but as I said, no profit.
also, electrics were cheap to build and maintain.
i know this can break off into many other topics including arguments... jus wanted to get my voice heard

[JHarris1385]

Tysamigo needs to see this thread.

I completely agree with circmand. I tell me fiance all the time dont wait till the price per gallon goes down 4 cents because you are only going to save less than a dollar overall. That is just an example on a much lower scale. I have been thinking about this topic recently becuase my commute is going to triple soon. (I will not sell the VX) I have began to think about driving my firebird more that avgerages in the mid 20's but then again over all I am saving minimal change and losing the fun and excitement of driving the VX which is why I bought it in the first place.

[Y33TREKker]

I know I may be off the original topic but we all know the problem and it can't be stopped...

Actually, electrics is what I should have suggested instead of hybrids in my first response. And I agree with you, especially after seeing Who Killed The Electric Car awhile back.

Trying to phase out gas and diesel burners obviously isn't viable in the short term, but I think a subsidized program of electrics manufacturing to make them more affordable in the US would be a good first step in decreasing dependence on oil, no matter where it comes from. And that certainly wouldn't hurt certain matters being dealt with in Detroit at the moment either.

You said it though....GR$$D rules.

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

It is hard to argue that we need to get off our dependancy on foreign oil. Even Bush said it in a rare moment when he wasn't holding hands with the the prince of Saudi Arabia.The issue is as it always has been big money.US auto makers have known for decades that smaller,more efficient cars sell.They ignored that and Japanese and German cars took a stranglehold on the american market.Prius hybrids may not be as cool as a VX, but when gas hits above 6 bucks a gallon, or more, which will happen in the next decade,old technology automobiles are going to be cost inefficient. I like the Prius, It looks way cool on the inside, like one of those cars that was shot through vacuum tubes in "Logan's Run".

[Dino]

These are the stats from the US Dept of Energy for the year 2000. Where the electricity comes from:

Based on primary energy source, coal-fired capacity represented 43 percent of the Nation's existing capacity. Gas-fired capacity accounted for 19 percent, nuclear 14 percent, renewable energy sources 12 percent, petroleum 7 percent and pumped storage hydroelectric.

Most of that energy to charge up your electric car still has to be pulled from the ground in the form of coal or oil.

The renewable sources need to be built up ( solar, wind ) then maybe electrics will be more efficient.

[JHarris1385]

These are the stats from the US Dept of Energy for the year 2000. Where the electricity comes from:

Based on primary energy source, coal-fired capacity represented 43 percent of the Nation's existing capacity. Gas-fired capacity accounted for 19 percent, nuclear 14 percent, renewable energy sources 12 percent, petroleum 7 percent and pumped storage hydroelectric.

Most of that energy to charge up your electric car still has to be pulled from the ground in the form of coal or oil.

The renewable sources need to be built up ( solar, wind ) then maybe electrics will be more efficient.

Thanks for bringing that up. I have always thought are people not thinking about the high electric bills when they start to plug their cars into the wall at night. I think it was GM that just had an auto show that the plug, plugged into the car on the front fender. All I could think of is 1. Thats going to make for one nice electric bill and 2. If you do not have a covered garage like alot dont (espcially the market that rents condos or appts) are you really going to have an extension cord coming from a socket in your house out to your drive just to plug a car in. (I mean if I saw that at my neighbors house I would splice that plug to get from free juice when they werent looking.

[IndianaVX]

i would think that there would have to be a whole new breakerbox installed with a honkin big cord comming out of it..... but i too have thought about how fast the numbers would be cliking by on the meter charging up a couple of cars.......and the insuing elec. bills

i heard an ad thismorning talking about how we send 1/4 billion dollars to opec every day but our country can do ONE THING.... DEMAND that auto makers produce cars that combined average 35 mpg, and if this is done, the average family could save 700 a YEAR. and that its time for the country to stand up to the AUTO MAKERS!?! and then say, lets quit sending our money to opec, and tell automakers to do this by 2020.

i just dont get it.......will we still not drive our cars when we get 35 mpg??
(those that can afford the car, thenusing that 700.00 a year savings and use it for 1 month of your car payment....) we will still need petrolium products. so do we still pay opec for our oil???? well, i guess only an 1/8 of a billion a day is better than a 1/4 billion.......yeah right....i say get the home brewed oil from our soil, and lower our dependency off the forign oil, and drive the vehicles we NEED to drive, (big rigs, tow trucks, work vans, etc, oh, and vx's) if a person is in position to only need a thing with 4 wheels to commute around, then more power to them. i personally cant haul 20 sheets of oak plywood in anything that is hybrid.

im out........

[johnnyapollo]

Technically you don't need a wire to charge a battery - there're some new products about to hit the market that does this (like a table that charges any applicance laid on it, so you could charge your cell phone). The same could be done to recharge the batteries on your electric car. So basically you could have a plate that's wired in the ground that you park your car over. Most wouldn't have the know-how to steal the power when you weren't looking.

If you've ever seen an analysis of power to efficiency, you'd see that real burning fuels are much more efficient than stored energy cells - you hit a point of diminishing returns with a vehicle when you transition to stored electric power vs real fuel power. I'm as big an advocate as anyone when it comes to alternative fuel and energy, but there's a practical limit - if all we were interested in is getting around for great economy, we could all be on vespas and luxuriate in 90 mpg+. The fact is we still need to carry children/pets, groceries, etc.

-- John

[Spike]

The real interesting thing is that ....

... you can clearly see ....

... that this is an early design mock up of a Honda Element

[circmand]

But you did not answer these questions 3. (Monty Python anybody?)

What happens when even with subsidies no one buys the econoboxes because they are ugly?

Whose homes get taken away to provide all the land you need for the solar and wind farms?

What do you do when your electric bill goes through the roof because all the energy we used to get from gas is now being produced by coal and gas power stations and still polluting the enviroment?

[Y33TREKker]

Never said I had all the answers, but trying to think of solutions seems more productive than coming up with reasons why possible solutions won't work.

Sorry, aside from a couple of the movies, I never watched much Monty Python. Was that a reference to the bridge troll? If so, I believe that could be directed either way.

I think John Lennon said it best,

"Ah, people asking questions, lost in confusion
Well I tell them there's no problem, only solutions
Well they shake their heads and they look at me as if I've lost my mind..."

[circmand]

You got the bridge troll correct. I have to disagree with your comment that

"but trying to think of solutions seems more productive than coming up with reasons why possible solutions won't work"

In the Sherlock Holmes novels he says Once you limit the impossible the remaining choice is correct no matter how improbable. Not an exact quote but since we do not have the resources to pursue every available option it remains for us to eliminate the wrong and the unlikely so we may better ascertain what is the best answer. It boggles my mind when supporters of a topis no matter how well intentioned seem to beleive there is a never ending supply of Government money to spend on their chosen goal. The government has no money they spend our money, at least those of us who pay taxes. I say if you want to donate the shirt of Your Back for a cause you are indeed a good sould but when you persist in trying to donate the shirt off my back you are a thief. (that is meant as a general comment no aspersions are directed at your specific person)

[Y33TREKker]

Correct, they are spending our money. So what's wrong with trying to think of better, more productive ways to spend it? I'd rather it be spent on things that really are an investment in our future, and I'm talking long term, not just next quarter. If the staus quo persists, who knows, the next shirt on your back may be desert camo.

[circmand]

I agree that we want to invest for long term solutions but we can not invest in everything so we need to eliminate the bad ideas and we do thta by saying why something will not work. Not really worried about camo I will just buy a khaki colored outfit and sit down in the dessert and everyone will think I am a sand dune.