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  1. #1
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    Y33 that is a bit of over simplification. The trillions being dumped are an investment and that money is paid back when the oil is sold. It has actually allowed most of South America to raise the standard of living for their people. I do not see how the world would be better if we all got hybrids right now went trillions in debt and had to use millions of acres of land to dump our current vehicles with the lead and other toxic metals in them. You mention you have several vehicles. Whether one is the greenest vehicle available owning more than one vehicle uses up resources and causes polution in its manufacture even if it is not being driven. Maybe we should let the government decide what cars we should build and who gets to drive what vehicle. Single guys would get a smart car and remain single as no woman would date them. The worst solution is to let government make decisions they screw everything up and costs would go through the roof. Do you want the same government that screwed up with Katrina deciding what cars we should have. I know Enviros are good hearted but their heads are not. They simply refuse to look at the facts and simply out scream anyone trying to discus the situation logically. The last thing I am worried about is the trees. I saw a documentary on the other night and scientists have discovered how to make more. Apparently you put this little thing in the ground called a seed water it throw some dog poop on it and in a few months it is a small tree. Later it grows even bigger and there is no way to tell it is not a real tree. (sorry I watch SP too) To protest cutting down a renwable and clean resource make housing unavailable or to expensive for the poor and requires man made materials too be produced that can cause pollution. I do not wantto see that planet paved over but the enviros need to stop protesting and start producing real world solutions.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by circmand View Post
    Y33 that is a bit of over simplification. The trillions being dumped are an investment and that money is paid back when the oil is sold.
    But that's what I'm saying. If the need for the oil decreased, the need for that type of investment would also decrease, freeing up that $$$ for other things. While there would be an additional expenditure up front, the ROI would be a lot more than just $$$ as it is now.

    I think that everyone tries to make the solution too complicated. If we always let ourselves get mired in the details of what might happen, hardly anything would ever get done, which seems to be the way things are going at the moment.

    And noone said anything about pushing all current non-green vehicles into a landfill. Subsidizing hybrids would just be a way to make them more affordable so that more people could own them, causing the by-product of being able to drive them, even if it was only every other day for those of us who like to have a second, cool-factor vehicle in the garage too (like say a VX) because of it's uniqueness.

    Those trillions may be considered an investment by some, but it could be debated whether that is an investment in the future.

  3. #3
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    the need for that type of investment would also decrease, freeing up that $$$ for other things. While there would be an additional expenditure up front, the ROI would be a lot more than just $$$ as it is now.

    Okay I will give you credit you have thought it through further than most. However, if we do not spend what we currently spend we bring up less oil. Less oil translates into less money brought in do less to sell. If we do not bring in that money where do we get the money to invest in the stuff you want us to invest in. Frankly government needs to be less intrusive and regulatory. If they hadn't stepped in earlier and decided the gasoline internal combustion engine was the way to go we might have had other companies investing in alternative systems all along and already have the problem solved. So who is to say another government program will not cause even worse problems. And this is not a what if, we already see the problems from corn based ethanol is doing to food prices. Also a fact the batteries the hybrids run on are only good for a few years and then they get thrown out. What do we do then.

    you also say we cant let the what ifs interefere in trying to solve the problems okay but we need more than why not to pursue a given direction.

  4. #4
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    i say drill in alaska, drop oil prices across the globe, let that money that is saved go into development of green autos that no one can afford. heck, hugo shavez is drilling awful close to our ocean border right now, and they are paying around .17 cents for a gallon of gas. if gas was even close to the 2.00 dollar mark, or less, think of what would happen with our economy with the extra money in consumers hands. maybe afford that newer car.
    i have no problem with trying to be green to a point. but i do have a problem with legeslation saying that auto manufaturers HAVE to be producing cars with higher, and higher mpg. which translates to lighter, and weaker cars and little power. and then cramming them down our throats. and dont they also have gas (an oil product)involved with rolling the wheels down the road
    also look at what the effect of the whole ethenol push is starting with the price of corn.
    and if the government gave everyone a green transport, who really is going to pay for that car??? all of us, just to apease the few.
    i keep the lights off when they need to be. ive got auto thermostats in my house. i mow after 6. i go in, not drive thru, fill up after sunset, and more. the truck i want to drive needs gas. i knew that.
    im really not trying to start an argument, please. i just dont understand why the urgency. we are always going to need oil. lets drill our own, get prices down, and then work on the renewables. i dont believe much, if any of the global warming hoopla, when i was growing up, it was the comming ice age, and i was a scared kid thinking about how when i was 40, the world was going to be covered in ice..... well, im 42 now, 30 years later

    david

    (im a little out of practice of making post. please excuse my breaks in thought line.)

  5. #5
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    Rekin none of us are arguing against new technology (being and Electronics Engineer - it's my bread and butter). We just don't want to be forced into giving up our passion (VXs).

    I'd rather concentrate on equipping our soldiers with stuff to keep them alive. I'd rather concentrate on feeding the hungry. If I have to go green - I will - but in some other car. I'll trade in the Eclipse for some Wuss-mobile. The VX stays gas & keeps enough grunt to tow the boat to the lake on weekends (period).

    If anyone wants to put a higher priority on going green - so be it. I'll shake your hand. I'll even watch closely to see how I can benefit. Sorry but it's just not as high on my priority list as yours (or even the Government's for that matter - Space Shuttle eats as much ozone on each trip as all the cars in the US in a year).

    IMHO
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Put a smiley after you say that Bub.

  6. #6
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    and just to ad a bit more, its not just the passion for my vx, and driving it countless miles, its about the fact that there is not a hybrid full size work van/truck for the people work out of, which dont get great mph either. and again, it comes to, if they want 30,000 for a little prius, what are they going to want for a pick up truck or van?? again, much more than i am going to want to pay, even 5 yrs down the road.

    and again, back to toms point earlier on repairs, i can atleast still work on the gas powered engine, where as dont know how owner reparible friendly the hybrids are, meaning dealer repairs....

    ok...gotta get back to work........

  7. #7
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    Lightbulb

    The real interesting thing is that the all the automobiles and trucks in the world once only ran on either ethanol, electricity or vegetable oil. Then a new "alternative" fuel was introduced: Gasoline. So, the big question is why can't we do what we did a hundred years ago? Look to the wallets of the world governments and you'll have your answer.

    In the meantime, the VX is a 4000+ pound truck and it was never designed with an eye on economy. Hybrids? Don't buy the lie! They still burn gas and people who get them tend to drive more since they get better economy thus using more gas and producing higher emissions than they did before they got the hybrid. But they are the media darlings and make everyone feel better when they tank up, and that's exactly what they were built to do and why the petroleum companies back them.

    The answers are out there, they aren't secret, and best of all they've been right under our nose for a century.

    Here's an interesting fact: Porsche got his start building electric cars starting in 1898. Yes, 1898. He sold over 300 including truck and lorry variants through 1906. Here's the first model, the System Lohner-Porsche (you can clearly see the hub motors on the front wheels)...



    And we can't figure this stuff out now? We all know the answer to that one!
    Over 20 years of Isuzu enjoyment...

  8. #8
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    I know I may be off the original topic but we all know the problem and it can't be stopped... money is the life juice of the world and people will do anything to get it. electric cars were the best thing more than a hundred years ago and then less than ten as well, but the companies weren't making any profit off of them. you had no oil to change, no lubricants and the brakes lasted forever because the engine slowed the vehicle fast enough for the average deceleration. so they killed them off and decided to go with hybrids... who cares about hybrids... i want my Electric. they were here for a bit but as I said, no profit.
    also, electrics were cheap to build and maintain.
    i know this can break off into many other topics including arguments... jus wanted to get my voice heard

  9. #9
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_Black View Post
    The real interesting thing is that ....

    ... you can clearly see ....

    ... that this is an early design mock up of a Honda Element
    ~ ~ ~
    Van Eyes - slightly trimmed, Sylvania SilverStar ULTRA head lamps, Red (port) & green (starboard) 5 LED 'headlight horn' lights, PIAA silicone windshield wipers, K&N Filtercharger (in stock air box), MacNeil WeatherFlectors, Assorted cargo nets from previous vehicles, Optima red-top battery, Transmission Interceptor, 20 LED 'light tower' turn signals & brake lights, 18W PIAA W2 running lights, Trooper skid plates, Black Luverne step bars w/Tone's custom brackets

  10. #10
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    So is this supposed to be a joke or what
    If God gave it four wheels....... does it make sense to only use two?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-19 View Post
    So is this supposed to be a joke or what
    Wether it is or isn't, with a "sale" price of $989.00, you would have to $ave a LOT of gas just to break even.

  12. #12
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    The problem with any alternative fuel source is facilitization. Just where do you purchase compressed hydrogen? You've all seen the flex fuel vehicles running around (runs on either gasoline or Compressed Natural Gas (CNG)). Ever wonder how often the switch is set to CNG? Almost never since there is no where to fill them up.

  13. #13
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    Lightbulb

    I'm typically very suspicious of such things, my general belief if there's anything to give an automaker a leg up on the competition to make profit they're going to do it. Sorry, I just don't go for international conspiracy theories. But in looking to find information debunking such devices I came across the following: http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/p...Y&pageId=4.1.1

    http://revision3.com/systm/waterpower/

    There's literally tons of information and misinformation on this topic but fortunately science always comes to the rescue: Typically those who discovered mileage increases actually did so through subconsciously moderating their driving style. The concept of increasing gasoline efficiency with hydrogen is sound, but effectively designing a device to economically produce it in sufficient volume is another matter entirely. If you're not familiar with production of hydrogen from electrolysis do some research into that and you'll find the answer to this question is rather simple.

  14. #14
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    I think the original fuel figures were off, or outdated.. but I've been looking to replace my VX.. I figure with the truck being over 100K, I would rather be sending some of the gas money toward payments for a new vehicle... a mini cooper s for excample with 24/34 mpg. This fuel calculator says I would save 133 bucks a month considering $3.20 a gallon and driving 15000 miles a year! My truck is paid off, but school loan payments say it's still to early to own more then one vehicle.. I'm looking to sell but need to find a mini I like first

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