MPG or Not MPG

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

It is hard to argue that we need to get off our dependancy on foreign oil. Even Bush said it in a rare moment when he wasn't holding hands with the the prince of Saudi Arabia.The issue is as it always has been big money.US auto makers have known for decades that smaller,more efficient cars sell.They ignored that and Japanese and German cars took a stranglehold on the american market.Prius hybrids may not be as cool as a VX, but when gas hits above 6 bucks a gallon, or more, which will happen in the next decade,old technology automobiles are going to be cost inefficient. I like the Prius, It looks way cool on the inside, like one of those cars that was shot through vacuum tubes in "Logan's Run".

[Dino]

These are the stats from the US Dept of Energy for the year 2000. Where the electricity comes from:

Based on primary energy source, coal-fired capacity represented 43 percent of the Nation's existing capacity. Gas-fired capacity accounted for 19 percent, nuclear 14 percent, renewable energy sources 12 percent, petroleum 7 percent and pumped storage hydroelectric.

Most of that energy to charge up your electric car still has to be pulled from the ground in the form of coal or oil.

The renewable sources need to be built up ( solar, wind ) then maybe electrics will be more efficient.

[JHarris1385]

These are the stats from the US Dept of Energy for the year 2000. Where the electricity comes from:

Based on primary energy source, coal-fired capacity represented 43 percent of the Nation's existing capacity. Gas-fired capacity accounted for 19 percent, nuclear 14 percent, renewable energy sources 12 percent, petroleum 7 percent and pumped storage hydroelectric.

Most of that energy to charge up your electric car still has to be pulled from the ground in the form of coal or oil.

The renewable sources need to be built up ( solar, wind ) then maybe electrics will be more efficient.

Thanks for bringing that up. I have always thought are people not thinking about the high electric bills when they start to plug their cars into the wall at night. I think it was GM that just had an auto show that the plug, plugged into the car on the front fender. All I could think of is 1. Thats going to make for one nice electric bill and 2. If you do not have a covered garage like alot dont (espcially the market that rents condos or appts) are you really going to have an extension cord coming from a socket in your house out to your drive just to plug a car in. (I mean if I saw that at my neighbors house I would splice that plug to get from free juice when they werent looking.

[IndianaVX]

i would think that there would have to be a whole new breakerbox installed with a honkin big cord comming out of it..... but i too have thought about how fast the numbers would be cliking by on the meter charging up a couple of cars.......and the insuing elec. bills

i heard an ad thismorning talking about how we send 1/4 billion dollars to opec every day but our country can do ONE THING.... DEMAND that auto makers produce cars that combined average 35 mpg, and if this is done, the average family could save 700 a YEAR. and that its time for the country to stand up to the AUTO MAKERS!?! and then say, lets quit sending our money to opec, and tell automakers to do this by 2020.

i just dont get it.......will we still not drive our cars when we get 35 mpg??
(those that can afford the car, thenusing that 700.00 a year savings and use it for 1 month of your car payment....) we will still need petrolium products. so do we still pay opec for our oil???? well, i guess only an 1/8 of a billion a day is better than a 1/4 billion.......yeah right....i say get the home brewed oil from our soil, and lower our dependency off the forign oil, and drive the vehicles we NEED to drive, (big rigs, tow trucks, work vans, etc, oh, and vx's) if a person is in position to only need a thing with 4 wheels to commute around, then more power to them. i personally cant haul 20 sheets of oak plywood in anything that is hybrid.

im out........

[johnnyapollo]

Technically you don't need a wire to charge a battery - there're some new products about to hit the market that does this (like a table that charges any applicance laid on it, so you could charge your cell phone). The same could be done to recharge the batteries on your electric car. So basically you could have a plate that's wired in the ground that you park your car over. Most wouldn't have the know-how to steal the power when you weren't looking.

If you've ever seen an analysis of power to efficiency, you'd see that real burning fuels are much more efficient than stored energy cells - you hit a point of diminishing returns with a vehicle when you transition to stored electric power vs real fuel power. I'm as big an advocate as anyone when it comes to alternative fuel and energy, but there's a practical limit - if all we were interested in is getting around for great economy, we could all be on vespas and luxuriate in 90 mpg+. The fact is we still need to carry children/pets, groceries, etc.

-- John

[tom4bren]

"you could have a plate that's wired in the ground that you park your car over"

Convenient - yes. Efficient - no.

[Y33TREKker]

Electrics or hybrids don't necessarily have to be recharged with a byproduct of fossil fuels. How about a solar panel on top of the garage that can be storing energy all day? Wind farms are also being tied into the grid. Bottom line, there are alternatives to the current status quo.

The war on terror is no doubt part of the reason so much $$$ is being pumped into foreign occupation, but we all know that isn't the only reason. The problem is, that current investment is going towards a never ending cycle, and will most likely only increase. And what is it they say about repeating the same actions over and over again hoping that something will change?...

you also say we cant let the what ifs interefere in trying to solve the problems okay but we need more than why not to pursue a given direction.

I'll finish it then. Why not maintain the current status quo? I'm sure you can think of as many answers as me.

[circmand]

The status Quo does not work either. We need alternatives but we cannot stop oil production in the hope we discover an alternative that can be brought to market quicker. Solar and wind are neat little ideas and if I had the cash and property I would have solar and wind on my property. However they will not supply enough to put more than a 10% reduction in oil consumption. Do you know how much land is needed for a wind farm? You use 4x the land for the windmill than you do for the house. Also wind and solar are not constant you can have days and nights with no sun or wind. Also the solar garage recarge is neat if you stay under 150 miles round trip but what if you want to go on a trip? You run low and stop for 6 hours to recharge? Or do you use gas? And even if the government subsidizes thhe econobox we have have plenty to choose from right now what gets the people to BUY them. They do no good sitting on the dealership lots. Look at Toyota gas only cars. They get good gas mileage and if we all just bought those we would have the 35 mpg average. But not everyone is buying them. Also I do not plan to buy another vehicle until I can not rely on my VX as a daily driver. The $425 a month I paid to buy it that I am not paying now more than compensates for the low mpg. By the way I probably save more gas by not driving as frequently. I bought my 2001 VX brand new it has less than 50,000 miles on it and since I bought it in VT I have moved to Pennsylvania, Connecticut and now I am in Texas. Take the moves and visits of that 50,000 miles and I bet I have driven less than 6000 a year.

[Y33TREKker]

Well, no one ever said that current oil production would have to stop. That's what I meant when I said there would be a need for an additional expenditure up front (for subsidies to decrease purchase prices).

A 10% reduction in oil consumption due to wind and solar usage would certainly be nothing to dismiss when current nationwide consumption is taken into account.

Subsidies would at least lower current prices making those econoboxes more affordable than they are now, which is why a lot of them do keep sitting on dealer lots. At current prices, not breaking even until a person reaches 150,000 miles isn't much of an incentive, even if the buyer does know they'd be helping the environment the whole time. A person still has to make ends meet these days.

My VX is more of a weekender too. I've averaged about 2800 miles a year since buying mine.

And my question about the status quo was rhetorical. I already know it's not working. I was just hoping it would generate some ideas for possible solutions, not just more reasons why some things might not work.

[Spike]

The real interesting thing is that ....

... you can clearly see ....

... that this is an early design mock up of a Honda Element

[circmand]

But you did not answer these questions 3. (Monty Python anybody?)

What happens when even with subsidies no one buys the econoboxes because they are ugly?

Whose homes get taken away to provide all the land you need for the solar and wind farms?

What do you do when your electric bill goes through the roof because all the energy we used to get from gas is now being produced by coal and gas power stations and still polluting the enviroment?

[Y33TREKker]

Never said I had all the answers, but trying to think of solutions seems more productive than coming up with reasons why possible solutions won't work.

Sorry, aside from a couple of the movies, I never watched much Monty Python. Was that a reference to the bridge troll? If so, I believe that could be directed either way.

I think John Lennon said it best,

"Ah, people asking questions, lost in confusion
Well I tell them there's no problem, only solutions
Well they shake their heads and they look at me as if I've lost my mind..."

[circmand]

You got the bridge troll correct. I have to disagree with your comment that

"but trying to think of solutions seems more productive than coming up with reasons why possible solutions won't work"

In the Sherlock Holmes novels he says Once you limit the impossible the remaining choice is correct no matter how improbable. Not an exact quote but since we do not have the resources to pursue every available option it remains for us to eliminate the wrong and the unlikely so we may better ascertain what is the best answer. It boggles my mind when supporters of a topis no matter how well intentioned seem to beleive there is a never ending supply of Government money to spend on their chosen goal. The government has no money they spend our money, at least those of us who pay taxes. I say if you want to donate the shirt of Your Back for a cause you are indeed a good sould but when you persist in trying to donate the shirt off my back you are a thief. (that is meant as a general comment no aspersions are directed at your specific person)

[Y33TREKker]

Correct, they are spending our money. So what's wrong with trying to think of better, more productive ways to spend it? I'd rather it be spent on things that really are an investment in our future, and I'm talking long term, not just next quarter. If the staus quo persists, who knows, the next shirt on your back may be desert camo.

[circmand]

I agree that we want to invest for long term solutions but we can not invest in everything so we need to eliminate the bad ideas and we do thta by saying why something will not work. Not really worried about camo I will just buy a khaki colored outfit and sit down in the dessert and everyone will think I am a sand dune.