Taxes!

[Marlin]

...since when did dear ol' dads insurance co$t preclude my constituional right to " life, liberty & the persuit of happiness?...or my "supposed" presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
Piss'n me on the presumption of possible guilt is....
VERY heavy handed for someone that calls him or herself an american. JMO.
What I do with my time away from work is MY business, as long as it has no effect on my attendance, or ability to perform the tasks that have been assigned to me, there should be no right to search my piss for "possible" guilt. What right are YOU willing to give up for the betterment of dads business?

If I'm caught doing something illegal by the LAW, then I deserve to be punished & scrutinized, but to be searched under the presumption of guilt?...seriously?
So if I see someone doing a crime, I should do nothing about it unless the law catches them??


Oops, I think I wasn't clear on this part. He has no choice but to test them. If he doesn't, his insurance rates go way up, and then he loses money. As a company that is trying to not outsource to the China, every penny counts. The VPs took huge paycuts in order to minimize layoffs. (We are talking about VPs that only make 100k a year, not 1.5mil a year) This a company that takes care of its people, if they are willing to contribute to the company. The idea being that if you have an incentive to see your company succeed, ie-stock shares, bonuses and so on, you will try harder.
He would rather not piss test except at hiring, of if they have an accident or whatnot. But with his insurance being a significant cost in the mix, he has to. He provides coverage to his full time employees, so thinking about how much health care costs, you can see why he would do this.
Sorry if that didn't come out the way it was supposed to.

Justin,
That is a much better way to portray what I was trying to say about the Mormons. It wasn't anecdotal, it was supposed to represent Mormon policy. As a rule, they (of course not all, calm down osteo) or rather as a culture, they do not let their members go on welfare, food stamps, government aid and so on. They take care of their own.

Here we go again, as a nation, PC BS has led to minority catering. I was under the impression that democracy fundamentally meant majority rules. Apparently it only rules so long as you don't offend or not coddle each minority, be it, color, ethnic, religious, sexual orientation or otherwise.
Its ok for the government to overstep its boundaries and take my money away from me, but when it comes to making them pee in a cup to get my money, thats going to far? Riiiight, that makes a lot of sense. Throwing the PC flag is a justified call, its not a cop out to be a bigot, although it wouldn't matter anyway. BO got all kinds of flack were referring to the Special Olympics with regards to his bowling skills. Who cares? Apparently, the uber minority of special olympics folks, and guess what, now you can't even say retard. How many words are going to be black listed? Watch the movie idiocracy, that is where we are heading.
We don't want people to be self sufficient, we want people to do what they are told, yet be free while doing it at the same time? Can't have both.

[VXR]

Watch the movie idiocracy, that is where we are heading

water? you mean like in the toilet...

[Marlin]

Just a thought, no numbers or anything, but I don't think illegal immigrants want amnesty. It would destroy their niche completely. Right now they are in high demand because as an employee, they have a low overhead. No taxes, no insurance, no SS and so on. They can do the same job for half the cost. Make them all citizens, backdate their tax/ss/fees debt and now they can't work for below minimum wage anymore. That would ruin everything they have right now, and then a flood of more illegals would have to arrive to take their spot. No, if I was a hardworking illegal trying to make it in the US because Mexico and other Hispanic countries suck, making me a legal citizen would be the last thing I want. Driver's license, insurance, having to follow laws and so on. It would completely remove what makes me special and desirable.
Those positions at the bottom will still exist and need to be filled, that means more illegals will flock to fill them. Then those that were illegal are jobless and no longer competitive, and so become a bigger safety net burden?

[Ldub]

...since when did dear ol' dads insurance co$t preclude my constituional right to " life, liberty & the persuit of happiness?...or my "supposed" presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
Piss'n me on the presumption of possible guilt is....
VERY heavy handed for someone that calls him or herself an american. JMO.
What I do with my time away from work is MY business, as long as it has no effect on my attendance, or ability to perform the tasks that have been assigned to me, there should be no right to search my piss for "possible" guilt. What right are YOU willing to give up for the betterment of dads business?

If I'm caught doing something illegal by the LAW, then I deserve to be punished & scrutinized, but to be searched under the presumption of guilt?...seriously?


"So if I see someone doing a crime, I should do nothing about it unless the law catches them??"


x
YEAH...THAT'S EXACTLY what was meant when I went all indignant over ILLEGAL searches of my piss under the presumption (without ANY evidence) of guilt...

How could you possibly comprehend my statement to mean "stand by & do nothing?...seriously...

It's not daddys job, NOR the job of the company he works for, to police my piss under the PRESUMPTION OF GUILT, & without probable cause.

I can see it in my mind...

"dod: think we should test this one for drugs?"

"other subordinate employ: Well YEAH...he filled out an ap right?...there's your probable cause...
You'd HAVE to be on drugs to wanna work here...

You are awfully fond of quoting some of those who framed the constitution, yet have no problem looking the other way when it's something wrong (re-read the constitution again, especially the part about search & seizure) being done in the name of corp profits.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

OK, the insurance co$t argument...

If in fact it were true:
Bow down to your corporate overlords peon...

A far more likely scenario is:

With paid time away from work, combined with the actual co$t of the lab work, x however many employees they are testing...
I have tremendous doubt if that argument holds much water.
Oops, I think I wasn't clear on this part. He has no choice but to test them. If he doesn't, his insurance rates go way up, and then he loses money. As a company that is trying to not outsource to the China, every penny counts. The VPs took huge paycuts in order to minimize layoffs. (We are talking about VPs that only make 100k a year, not 1.5mil a year) This a company that takes care of its people, if they are willing to contribute to the company. The idea being that if you have an incentive to see your company succeed, ie-stock shares, bonuses and so on, you will try harder.
He would rather not piss test except at hiring, of if they have an accident or whatnot. But with his insurance being a significant cost in the mix, he has to. He provides coverage to his full time employees, so thinking about how much health care costs, you can see why he would do this.

xx

[Marlin]

xx

No, the constitution protects you from the government searching you and so on against your will. My dad's factory is not a government agency, and you provide your urine of your own free will. He can't make you. You have a choice!!!!! He just won't hire you. No law against that. As an employee, think of yourself as a tool for the company so to speak. You want the best tools possible. You wouldn't do precision machining with a Harbor Freight lathe? You get the idea.
His company also makes his guys and girls cut their hair, or else it has to be compressed under a helmet. If it doesn't fit, then you get it removed. Lots of heavy machinery and rotating machinery, its not a safe place for loose clothing/hair.
Guess what, I have to wear a uniform to work, shave, have my haircut a specific way and so on. I can't bring my phone to work, and I get random searched all the time, for no reason, just cause, just in case I might have a phone. Where is the ACLU!!! My rights are being violated!!!
No, an employer should be able to do an initial drug test, he is investing time in money on you. He should be able to tests if there is an accident, or reasonable cause. If you don't like it, work somewhere else. Thats the glory, you have a choice!!!
I would test drive a car, check the oil, and so on If I was buying a home, I would have it inspected, check the attic and so on. An employee is potentially a 50 year investment.

Here is another good one, if I get in trouble out in town, say a DUI, I do my civil court stuff and so on. Then I come back to work and do it again, where I get reduced in rank,(lowered pay, no chance for promotion...and possibly even fired. You would expect that since your tax dollars are going to fund this operation, you should have safe operators. Essentially I work for you. Wouldn't trust a drunk/drug guy with a million dollar machine would you? Would you want to put your life in the hands of a heroin addict? Working in a factory with 200 ton presses, metal saws, robotic welders and so on is no different. Its a dangerous job if you aren't paying attention.

I am a volunteer in the military, I knew the rules when I signed up. I had a choice to not work here.

[tom4bren]

Its a dangerous job if you aren't paying attention.

X2

Just this past Monday I got to work all blurry from too much partying over the weekend - wasn't paying attention to what I was doing - got a paper cut - hurt like hell. I wonder if I should file workman's comp???

JK, I'm a G-Civ. I didn't come to work on Monday ... & nobody even noticed.

Interesting turn of events yesterday though. They MADE me fill out an application to telecommute. No problem there (I commute 45 miles each way) I'll telecommute however I can, whenever I can.

Here's the rub: If post ever closes for weather or if the Government ever shuts down for $$$, I HAVE to put in my 9 from home (potentially for free).

[Marlin]

Wow, that fizzled out pretty quick. How boring. Come on, there has to be something else, some kind of counter somewhere in there.
I was having fun!!! Just like Osteo said, better to argue over what we disagree on than to talk about how much we agree on something else.
I even threw in a jab on the billions we spend on Indians.

[Ldub]

No, the constitution protects you from the government searching you and so on against your will. My dad's factory is not a government agency, and you provide your urine of your own free will. He can't make you. You have a choice!!!!! He just won't hire you. No law against that. As an employee, think of yourself as a tool

Ummmmmmmmm...no thanx, you enjoy your status as a "tool"...I'd rather be poor...

[VXR]

Ummmmmmmmm...no thanx, you enjoy your status as a "tool"...I'd rather be poor...

you could be both

[Marlin]

Well, how about you think of yourself as an employer. Start a company, provide insurance, paycheck, safety, security and so on. But, you cannot ask them any questions, no interviews and of course no drug tests. You can be the Toolmaster!! I wonder how long that lasts?

(Please note my earlier comment about legalizing pot, never seen anyone high beat their girlfriend, get in a fight and so on)