Taxes!

[Marlin]

...since when did dear ol' dads insurance co$t preclude my constituional right to " life, liberty & the persuit of happiness?...or my "supposed" presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
Piss'n me on the presumption of possible guilt is....
VERY heavy handed for someone that calls him or herself an american. JMO.
What I do with my time away from work is MY business, as long as it has no effect on my attendance, or ability to perform the tasks that have been assigned to me, there should be no right to search my piss for "possible" guilt. What right are YOU willing to give up for the betterment of dads business?

If I'm caught doing something illegal by the LAW, then I deserve to be punished & scrutinized, but to be searched under the presumption of guilt?...seriously?
So if I see someone doing a crime, I should do nothing about it unless the law catches them??


Oops, I think I wasn't clear on this part. He has no choice but to test them. If he doesn't, his insurance rates go way up, and then he loses money. As a company that is trying to not outsource to the China, every penny counts. The VPs took huge paycuts in order to minimize layoffs. (We are talking about VPs that only make 100k a year, not 1.5mil a year) This a company that takes care of its people, if they are willing to contribute to the company. The idea being that if you have an incentive to see your company succeed, ie-stock shares, bonuses and so on, you will try harder.
He would rather not piss test except at hiring, of if they have an accident or whatnot. But with his insurance being a significant cost in the mix, he has to. He provides coverage to his full time employees, so thinking about how much health care costs, you can see why he would do this.
Sorry if that didn't come out the way it was supposed to.

Justin,
That is a much better way to portray what I was trying to say about the Mormons. It wasn't anecdotal, it was supposed to represent Mormon policy. As a rule, they (of course not all, calm down osteo) or rather as a culture, they do not let their members go on welfare, food stamps, government aid and so on. They take care of their own.

Here we go again, as a nation, PC BS has led to minority catering. I was under the impression that democracy fundamentally meant majority rules. Apparently it only rules so long as you don't offend or not coddle each minority, be it, color, ethnic, religious, sexual orientation or otherwise.
Its ok for the government to overstep its boundaries and take my money away from me, but when it comes to making them pee in a cup to get my money, thats going to far? Riiiight, that makes a lot of sense. Throwing the PC flag is a justified call, its not a cop out to be a bigot, although it wouldn't matter anyway. BO got all kinds of flack were referring to the Special Olympics with regards to his bowling skills. Who cares? Apparently, the uber minority of special olympics folks, and guess what, now you can't even say retard. How many words are going to be black listed? Watch the movie idiocracy, that is where we are heading.
We don't want people to be self sufficient, we want people to do what they are told, yet be free while doing it at the same time? Can't have both.

[VXR]

Watch the movie idiocracy, that is where we are heading

water? you mean like in the toilet...

[Marlin]

Just a thought, no numbers or anything, but I don't think illegal immigrants want amnesty. It would destroy their niche completely. Right now they are in high demand because as an employee, they have a low overhead. No taxes, no insurance, no SS and so on. They can do the same job for half the cost. Make them all citizens, backdate their tax/ss/fees debt and now they can't work for below minimum wage anymore. That would ruin everything they have right now, and then a flood of more illegals would have to arrive to take their spot. No, if I was a hardworking illegal trying to make it in the US because Mexico and other Hispanic countries suck, making me a legal citizen would be the last thing I want. Driver's license, insurance, having to follow laws and so on. It would completely remove what makes me special and desirable.
Those positions at the bottom will still exist and need to be filled, that means more illegals will flock to fill them. Then those that were illegal are jobless and no longer competitive, and so become a bigger safety net burden?

[Ldub]

...since when did dear ol' dads insurance co$t preclude my constituional right to " life, liberty & the persuit of happiness?...or my "supposed" presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
Piss'n me on the presumption of possible guilt is....
VERY heavy handed for someone that calls him or herself an american. JMO.
What I do with my time away from work is MY business, as long as it has no effect on my attendance, or ability to perform the tasks that have been assigned to me, there should be no right to search my piss for "possible" guilt. What right are YOU willing to give up for the betterment of dads business?

If I'm caught doing something illegal by the LAW, then I deserve to be punished & scrutinized, but to be searched under the presumption of guilt?...seriously?


"So if I see someone doing a crime, I should do nothing about it unless the law catches them??"


x
YEAH...THAT'S EXACTLY what was meant when I went all indignant over ILLEGAL searches of my piss under the presumption (without ANY evidence) of guilt...

How could you possibly comprehend my statement to mean "stand by & do nothing?...seriously...

It's not daddys job, NOR the job of the company he works for, to police my piss under the PRESUMPTION OF GUILT, & without probable cause.

I can see it in my mind...

"dod: think we should test this one for drugs?"

"other subordinate employ: Well YEAH...he filled out an ap right?...there's your probable cause...
You'd HAVE to be on drugs to wanna work here...

You are awfully fond of quoting some of those who framed the constitution, yet have no problem looking the other way when it's something wrong (re-read the constitution again, especially the part about search & seizure) being done in the name of corp profits.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

OK, the insurance co$t argument...

If in fact it were true:
Bow down to your corporate overlords peon...

A far more likely scenario is:

With paid time away from work, combined with the actual co$t of the lab work, x however many employees they are testing...
I have tremendous doubt if that argument holds much water.
Oops, I think I wasn't clear on this part. He has no choice but to test them. If he doesn't, his insurance rates go way up, and then he loses money. As a company that is trying to not outsource to the China, every penny counts. The VPs took huge paycuts in order to minimize layoffs. (We are talking about VPs that only make 100k a year, not 1.5mil a year) This a company that takes care of its people, if they are willing to contribute to the company. The idea being that if you have an incentive to see your company succeed, ie-stock shares, bonuses and so on, you will try harder.
He would rather not piss test except at hiring, of if they have an accident or whatnot. But with his insurance being a significant cost in the mix, he has to. He provides coverage to his full time employees, so thinking about how much health care costs, you can see why he would do this.

xx

[Marlin]

xx

No, the constitution protects you from the government searching you and so on against your will. My dad's factory is not a government agency, and you provide your urine of your own free will. He can't make you. You have a choice!!!!! He just won't hire you. No law against that. As an employee, think of yourself as a tool for the company so to speak. You want the best tools possible. You wouldn't do precision machining with a Harbor Freight lathe? You get the idea.
His company also makes his guys and girls cut their hair, or else it has to be compressed under a helmet. If it doesn't fit, then you get it removed. Lots of heavy machinery and rotating machinery, its not a safe place for loose clothing/hair.
Guess what, I have to wear a uniform to work, shave, have my haircut a specific way and so on. I can't bring my phone to work, and I get random searched all the time, for no reason, just cause, just in case I might have a phone. Where is the ACLU!!! My rights are being violated!!!
No, an employer should be able to do an initial drug test, he is investing time in money on you. He should be able to tests if there is an accident, or reasonable cause. If you don't like it, work somewhere else. Thats the glory, you have a choice!!!
I would test drive a car, check the oil, and so on If I was buying a home, I would have it inspected, check the attic and so on. An employee is potentially a 50 year investment.

Here is another good one, if I get in trouble out in town, say a DUI, I do my civil court stuff and so on. Then I come back to work and do it again, where I get reduced in rank,(lowered pay, no chance for promotion...and possibly even fired. You would expect that since your tax dollars are going to fund this operation, you should have safe operators. Essentially I work for you. Wouldn't trust a drunk/drug guy with a million dollar machine would you? Would you want to put your life in the hands of a heroin addict? Working in a factory with 200 ton presses, metal saws, robotic welders and so on is no different. Its a dangerous job if you aren't paying attention.

I am a volunteer in the military, I knew the rules when I signed up. I had a choice to not work here.

[Ebenezr]

Goodness Gracious what have I started....

[samneil2000]

I hate to join the back and forth but I gotta throw my .02 in. I know first hand that there are folks here that aspire to get on social security. To them, that's making it. They would rather get it than work. I overheard a conversation between two African-American women. One was working at Target, checking. The other was a customer behind me in line. As I was checking out they struck up a conversation. The worker asked the customer where she had been. She said she hurt her ankle and had to get on social security. The checker then said oh yeah, me too. I been trying to get my social security too. I got heart problems.

Yes, you have a heart problem indeed...

People don't realize that social security and other handouts takes peoples motivation away. People would now rather suck from the teet the nation rather than contribute to it.

Check out my blog Chris. I'm right there with ya. Too much going on in my head and needed a place to vent.
http://munfordsam.blogspot.com/

[Ebenezr]

Alright folks its time for me to chime in. It is too late. Problems should have been dealt with years ago but were not. Now we are in a damned if we do - damned if don't situation. Government spending can NOT be cut. It is too much of the economy. If we cut it then the economy will DE-stimulate and go from recession to depression. Simularly taxes can NOT be increased. Our last hope is the rich. Yes the rich. those that have the ability to create wealth and jobs by creating a business that produces inovation and new jobs. If we tax them -then we remove that wealth that they would use to create businesses and jobs. There is much more to this but I don't want to be lengthy. Batten the hatches friends. The rioting you see overseas will break out some day on our shores.. in New York City with levels of civil disobedience we never thought could happen.

[Marlin]

Alright folks its time for me to chime in. It is too late. Problems should have been dealt with years ago but were not. Now we are in a damned if we do - damned if don't situation. Government spending can NOT be cut. It is too much of the economy. If we cut it then the economy will DE-stimulate and go from recession to depression. Simularly taxes can NOT be increased. Our last hope is the rich. Yes the rich. those that have the ability to create wealth and jobs by creating a business that produces inovation and new jobs. If we tax them -then we remove that wealth that they would use to create businesses and jobs. There is much more to this but I don't want to be lengthy. Batten the hatches friends. The rioting you see overseas will break out some day on our shores.. in New York City with levels of civil disobedience we never thought could happen.

Viva la revolution!!!

Why can't we cut aid to foreign countries, tax the piss out of companies who outsource, making it cheaper to hire at home? Why can't we tier the taxes on profit, making it ideal to make a fair profit, vice the gross billions in profit and so on. That would prevent them from raising prices to maintain their current bloated profits when they are forced to hire folks at home.

[Ebenezr]

Viva la revolution!!!

Why can't we cut aid to foreign countries, tax the piss out of companies who outsource, making it cheaper to hire at home? Why can't we tier the taxes on profit, making it ideal to make a fair profit, vice the gross billions in profit and so on. That would prevent them from raising prices to maintain their current bloated profits when they are forced to hire folks at home.

That is exactly what I'm referring to when I stated I couldn't say anymore in order to keep it brief. There are reams of reasons and things we can do BUT THEY WILL not be done because big corps are in bed with politicians and political parties and for that reason it will NEVER get done. Batten the hatches friends!!

[vt_maverick]

No offense Eb but that's exactly the kind of thinking that has gotten us where we're at. We've been sitting at the dinner table staring at our peas for decades - sooner or later we're going to have to eat them. Cutting spending and raising taxes will no doubt have significant and immediate negative effects, but in the long term that's what we have to do IMHO. Somewhere along the way our politicians lost their collective intestinal fortitude to make the right decision - they're primarily concerned about their ability to get re-elected, which is why you see all this "Oh no we can't even consider that, the consequences would be too great!" talk in the media. It's the consequences to their political career that are too great - we have weathered worse as a people in our past, and we can and should do it again to get to a better place.

[Marlin]

Maybe its just the conspiracy theorist in me, but I think all of these "episodes" are just smoke in mirrors. Take our free food, take our free money, and before you know it your hooked. You can do whatever you want, as long as its what we tell you to do.
I think the reps are way over paid and over pampered. The amounts of money involved are mind blowing. The amounts are so high, that its Eff you money. They can do whatever they want, and there is nothing, short of armed revolution, that will change it. Nothing. Do you really think your vote counts? How do you know? When the pres can buy his way in to the office, whose to say the same doesn't happen at the state level?

[Scott Harness]

No offense Eb but that's exactly the kind of thinking that has gotten us where we're at. We've been sitting at the dinner table staring at our peas for decades - sooner or later we're going to have to eat them. Cutting spending and raising taxes will no doubt have significant and immediate negative effects, but in the long term that's what we have to do IMHO. Somewhere along the way our politicians lost their collective intestinal fortitude to make the right decision - they're primarily concerned about their ability to get re-elected, which is why you see all this "Oh no we can't even consider that, the consequences would be too great!" talk in the media. It's the consequences to their political career that are too great - we have weathered worse as a people in our past, and we can and should do it again to get to a better place.

Here Here...nail on the head!!

[Ebenezr]

No offense Eb but that's exactly the kind of thinking that has gotten us where we're at. We've been sitting at the dinner table staring at our peas for decades - sooner or later we're going to have to eat them. Cutting spending and raising taxes will no doubt have significant and immediate negative effects, but in the long term that's what we have to do IMHO. Somewhere along the way our politicians lost their collective intestinal fortitude to make the right decision - they're primarily concerned about their ability to get re-elected, which is why you see all this "Oh no we can't even consider that, the consequences would be too great!" talk in the media. It's the consequences to their political career that are too great - we have weathered worse as a people in our past, and we can and should do it again to get to a better place.

Here Here...nail on the head!!

Cutting spending=instant move from recession to depression. The gov is too large a part of the economy. Raising taxes will kill the financing that upper class provides to create wealth. "It takes money to make money". But aside that it will not happen cause politicians are in a form of checkmate. They CANT make it happen because of the roadblocks in thier way.

[vt_maverick]

Cutting spending=instant move from recession to depression.

And this is a bad thing (relative to gradual complete insolvency / default) because? We can choose the difficult path while we actually have control, or we can wait until our creditors are ordering us what to do.