WikiLeaks

[Marlin]

If you were to read old newspapers you'd see that people have been complaining about similar sorts of corruption for at least 100 years now - probably more. I haven't read any older than that so I can't say how long the corruption has been rampant. And if all your ranting about things like why they haven't put entire staffs of political appointees in jail isn't a claim of failure, then I don't know what is.

Then what is the point of wikileaks? If we have had 100 years of the same info being put out to the common person and nothing changes, what are you expecting to come out of it now? As you pointed out, we have history of violent rebellion being unsuccessful in the longterm, the same can be said of reporting corruption?

All in all, realistically, do you deep down inside think that wikileaks released documents are going to be anything more than a brief news flash? It does give us (here on the VX forum, well at least the few of us still goin on about it) something to talk about it. Good entertainment value. I wonder how many of our little family here are lurking in this thread? I would be curious to know what others think. I know I come off as an ******* sometimes, but I do try to write coherently without name calling or anything as childish as that. I am fair and I try to be consistent. I harbor no ill will to anyone regardless of our discussions. TomDietrying has exact opposite political views as I do and we got along great at Moab!
Are we really the only ones still lookin at this thread?
Are my thoughts way over the edge and no one agrees with anything I say? (and vice versa).
For you lurkers, feel free to throw in your thoughts!!! (minus name calling and the like)

[Stephen Biko]

Then what is the point of wikileaks? If we have had 100 years of the same info being put out to the common person and nothing changes, what are you expecting to come out of it now? As you pointed out, we have history of violent rebellion being unsuccessful in the longterm, the same can be said of reporting corruption?

Except that its undeniable that the standard of living for the entire country has vastly improved during the time so the reformers have been successful. If corruption was as absolute as you make it out to be we'd all be subsistence farmers or working 12 hour days 7 days a week in sweatshops.

[circmand]

Except that its undeniable that the standard of living for the entire country has vastly improved during the time so the reformers have been successful. If corruption was as absolute as you make it out to be we'd all be subsistence farmers or working 12 hour days 7 days a week in sweatshops.

People living in so called poverty today would be considered among the richest in the country when it was founded. Indoor plumbing, electricity, Tvs, cell phones, free medical care, free food of better quality than most were able to obtain unless they grew it themselves. All of this was merely imagination 200 years ago.

[Marlin]

Except that its undeniable that the standard of living for the entire country has vastly improved during the time so the reformers have been successful. If corruption was as absolute as you make it out to be we'd all be subsistence farmers or working 12 hour days 7 days a week in sweatshops.

Umm, perhaps it is the corruption that has lead to our success. "A fool and his money are soon parted." The corruption at the top has to recognize that what is good for the goose is good for the gander, if your people are happy and successful, then production will be better, and they will be less likely to start a violent revolution, the only kind of revolution that has ever been successful for any long term period of time.

I agree with Circmand, our conditions now are so ridiculously cushy, even 100 years ago they would have laughed at the whining that goes on today. That is part of the problem. Most people in our nation wouldn't last more than a few days without walmart and grocery stores. We have grown so accustomed to being told what we can and cannot do, we don't know what to do on our own given the chance. We have a government branch to control everything, what freedoms do you really have left? We have the illusion of freedom, but that doesn't make it real.
I think the wikileaks thing is just an excuse for the government to implement controls over internet media, much the same as 9/11 was an excuse for Homeland Defense and the monstrous TSA and the like.

[Scott Harness]

We have a government branch to control everything, what freedoms do you really have left? We have the illusion of freedom, but that doesn't make it real.
I think the wikileaks thing is just an excuse for the government to implement controls over internet media, much the same as 9/11 was an excuse for Homeland Defense and the monstrous TSA and the like.

What he said...unless they're watching

[Marlin]

What he said...unless they're watching

I just saw that the FCC is trying to regulate internet provider sales byt making the internet speeds the same for everyone...man did I call it! I know that the provisions in this regulation aren't what I am inferring, but this broke the ice. Pending court review, what is next? Just like TSA and removing your shoes, now look at what goes on.

Internet censorship, here we come!!!!

[Scott Harness]

I heard that story.They said Wi-Fi would be slower for some reason

[Y33TREKker]

by Y33TREKker - "On the contrary. My answer was even specifically tailored for you; a person who has admittedly chosen to do nothing...at least in the way of supporting an entity that is trying to do something anyway."

by Marlin - "Saying that you agree with wikileaks or not agreeing is not doing something. My lack of caring about wikileaks does not weaken or strengthen their position."

Fortunately, you caring wasn't required for them to do what they did in the first place either.

Perhaps this is just a matter of degrees, because in my opinion, supporting such an entity, even if a person does just say that they agree with the actions that are being taken can count for much more than mere lip-service as you are portraying it to be...not to mention the fact that no one has to get shot.

You say that you know corruption is a given, but can you prove it? It's one thing for people to complain across their fences about what they "think" is going on, but it's something else entirely to have actual proof of those suspicions.

This is where we get to the part that doesn't make sense though, because here we have an entity that is possibly introducing tangible evidence for your suspicions, but rather than embracing said entity (that is possibly providing the proof that could be used to initiate the revolution you say is needed), your response is to dismiss that entity and anyone who suggests it should be believed, supported, etc.

It's bad enough that killing the messenger who bears bad news is too often put into practice, but is it now being suggested that should be adopted for messengers bearing potential good news too?

As I alluded to before, it's almost become a chicken-and-the-egg scenario, with people trying to condemn wikileaks to distract from the fact that the contents/actions contained in the leaks happened first.

[Marlin]

Perhaps this is just a matter of degrees, because in my opinion, supporting such an entity, even if a person does just say that they agree with the actions that are being taken can count for much more than mere lip-service as you are portraying it to be...not to mention the fact that no one has to get shot.

Money talks, by your own words above, opinions do not matter either way. Besides, if folks never got shot, we wouldn't be here right now.

You say that you know corruption is a given, but can you prove it? It's one thing for people to complain across their fences about what they "think" is going on, but it's something else entirely to have actual proof of those suspicions.

Yes, we have 100 years of newspaper reports saying so. Those have just as much value as the unconfirmed wikileaks reports. I have said more than once THE FED GAVE 9 TRILLION IN LOANS TO THE BANKS AT <1% INTEREST!!! HOW DO YOU THINK THEY PAID THEIR STIMULUS LOANS BACK SO QUICK!!!! IF THAT IS NOT CORRUPTION, I AM NOT SURE WHAT IS.

This is where we get to the part that doesn't make sense though, because here we have an entity that is possibly introducing tangible evidence for your suspicions, but rather than embracing said entity

wiki (?w?k?)

— n
a. a web application that allows anyone visiting a website to edit content on it

By the owners assigned name, it implies that it could be wrong. Wikileaks is no more credible than CNN, Fox News, New York Times and so on. There is nothing tangible about it. I could start a site tomorrow and release whatever secret documents I want. What makes them any more or less credible than Julian's releases?

[Marlin]

You say that you know corruption is a given, but can you prove it? It's one thing for people to complain across their fences about what they "think" is going on, but it's something else entirely to have actual proof of those suspicions.

Are you saying that if you had access to billions of dollars and could get away with funneling some of that to your own personal use, if even only a few hundred thousand, and not suffer any real consequences, you wouldn't? Day after day, temptation of virtually unlimited funding, others pushing you to do things in their own best interests, or else you suffer job failure that you might not be tempted to do the wrong thing? If you really believe you wouldn't, you are the next savior. The problems are inherent in the system, be it Bush, Obama, whoever, our government and their funding are just too big. Hence the inevitable collapse. Much the same as the Romans, we have begun voting our coffers back into our own pockets. This is a tell tale sign of things to come. As Biko pointed out, history will repeat itself, and the bloated empires always fail eventually.

[Marlin]

Perhaps this is just a matter of degrees, because in my opinion, supporting such an entity, even if a person does just say that they agree with the actions that are being taken

This repeated concept is really starting to frustrate me. THERE ARE NO ACTIONS BEING TAKEN. You keep saying that something is being done about what comes out on wikileaks, but what is being done? Not a DAMNED thing. Its been weeks, nothing. Not even a news blip. the investigations can't be secret, it would do no good. Think of ENRON.
You can't even tell me what you are going to do in the worst case scenario, you are willing to sit back and wait for someone else to do it. At least I admit that I am going to do nothing but prepare for the worst. At least I am doing something. That is far better than doing nothing but waiting for someone else to take care of it for you...thus proving my point that America is full of folks just waiting to be told what to do.

Along the lines of being told what to do:
I just read an article yesterday that 31 of 35 major cities tested for chromium in tap water were well above the limits. Takes years for the government to enact any kind of controls. That means you need to filter your own water, especially for children. I did this 3 years ago. Our entire house has better than bottled water out of every tap in the house. As a matter of fact, by the little computer on my filtration system, it has filtered out 186lbs of solids in the last 835 days. (apparently power was out long enough to lose memory a few years ago).