**Patriotic Retirement**

[AREA 51]

Ok, first off, the 40 million people x $1 million each comes out to $40 TRILLION dollars.

That don't work.

Next, on the subject of union bashing, maybe we should abandon what unions gave lives for and go back to child labor, 16 or more hour work days, and work 6 or more days a week mandatory with zero benefits, no worker safety laws and live in the company town, in company housing that you will be charged for, and buy from the company store ending up with little or no savings. That is if they will hire you based on your ethnicity. Businesses routinely hired Pinkertons and other private security to beat and kill union organizers while police stood idly by. Now they have the police and national guard doing that job on occasion.

I hope nobody believes that businesses gave anything to unions out of the goodness of their heart. Everything is negotiated. A general way of putting it is that both parties give things up to reach a settlement. Now the Administration wants the UAW workers to give up wages that they negotiated while keeping businesses' side of the negotiations intact. NOT FAIR! And is it fair that UAW workers should reduce their standard of living to match that of a semi-literate former dung farmer, south of the mason-dixon line who THINKS he won the lottery because a foreign owned company is paying half of what he should be making?

The only reason non-union offer any benefits at all is because they are so scared of the employees having an EQUAL seat at the table, they match their benefits to what...? They usually match, but rarely exceed what the union would offer.

How is it that until the decline in unionism, early 70's, That one man could support a family without the wife or kids having to work? A lot of so-called "skilled workers" conveniently forget that they got their college education through union employed parents paying the bill. THE UNIONS OFFER A MAN OR WOMAN A DECENT STANDARD OF LIVING and EQUAL REPRESENTATION and PAY!!!. That is what it is about.

Now with the decline in unions, corporate greed dictates what benefits are cut or eliminated, as well as the threat of H1-B visa foreign workers competing for your job (at a lower wage, of course) and pay inequity between the sexes.

Another oversight in the blame game is that there is no major difference between a UNION and a "professional" ASSOCIATION . You know , like the American MEDICAL or BAR Association. Nobody is complaining about their rules preventing foreign lawers or doctors practicing in this country for less. You just have to go to their country to get the same proceedure and with the savings, you can take a nice vacation too. If any business could have a foreign worker do your job here and do it for less, they would do it in a heartbeat.

Over the last 20 to 30 years, unions and blue collar jobs have been torndown in general, by PRO-BUSINESS administrations. Look where that has got us now. The businesses said they had to move production overseas due to labor costs , but did they ever reduce prices after paying sweatshop and child labor pennies on the dollar? No, and now we have been tricked into lowering our standard of living in order to compete with the GLOBAL ECONOMY.


Why is it that for almost 20 years congress would not raise the minimum wage, even if just to match inflation, but they have no problem giving themselves raises AND cost of living increases? The businesses that own the politicians would not allow it. Even our politicians are so elitist that some of them, like McCain think the MIDDLE-CLASS is annual income up to "$5 MILLION". What a joke. Politicians should make no more annual income than the average of their constituency. Include insurance and pension too. That would bring them back to reality pretty quick.

What is the difference between a person who works for minimum wage or is at the poverty level and an inmate in a jail? Well, taxpayers spend about $60,000 dollars per inmate per year to support the inmate. Who's the sucker in this scenario?

Not all union workers "push buttons" all day long and when you see a union worker working outside in the nice weather and think "that's easy", just remember he's doing the same job when it's 20 degrees or colder with wind chill and or in other unfavorable weather or on the top deck of a high rise building.


Long story short, The businesses BUY (access to) Politicians who screw the rapidly vanishing , true middle class. Look how many politicians received big contributions from AIG and the other financials. Just like the politicians involved in the banking crisis of the 70's (like JOHN McCAIN, who got a slap on the wrist for influence peddling for the financial organizations. It's an eye opener, but as always businesses can afford to ..um
INFLUENCE politicians, can you as an individual afford the same?

Rant off.

[tom4bren]

Ever stop to think that the current financial mess is nothing more than a predicatable cyclic trend?

Sure, a lot of good points were made in this thread about cause & effect (although it did degenerate into a lot of generalizations that should have been left unsaid).

The consumer based economy had gotten so inflated that it HAD to deflate or burst. Cmon, does a city the size of Fredericksburg, VA really needs 3 super WalMarts, 1 Target & 2 super Targets, 9 McDonalds, 5 Burger Kings, 5 Wendys, 48 grocerie stores, 22 auto parts stores, 16 new car dealerships, ... ?

[tom4bren]

Sorry - I exagerated. We only have 2 super WalMarts & 1 regular.

[Moncha]

I must say, you make me proud!
It's been a long time since I have been able to witness an actual debate on this forum without the tendency to turn it into a tyrannical tirade.

My "kids" are growing up!

[Marlin]

I must say, you make me proud!
It's been a long time since I have been able to witness an actual debate on this forum without the tendency to turn it into a tyrannical tirade.

My "kids" are growing up!

Oh Scott, you sound like my dad....makes me laugh. My little brother and I go at it all the time (he is a social worker at an old folks home, so we often don't see eye to eye when it comes to politics)

[Marlin]

Ever stop to think that the current financial mess is nothing more than a predicatable cyclic trend?

Very good point as far as the trend, kind of like global warming, we are on our way out of an ice age, of course it's gonna get warmer...lol

"Sure, a lot of good points were made in this thread about cause & effect (although it did degenerate into a lot of generalizations that should have been left unsaid)."



As far as things that should not have been said, that's just crazy, our country is full of close mouthed whiners that are too scared to talk about anything because they might offend someone. Who cares, it is NOT against the law to offend others. No one is willing to say what they think, so we sit around waiting for someone to say it for us. I 100% enjoy these threads, almost as much as I enjoy talkin about the Vx!!!!! Freedom of speech is the most important freedom we have, and we are one of the last places in the world that have any remnant of that freedom, better exercise it, or it may go away...

[pbkid]

I 100% enjoy these threads, almost as much as I enjoy talkin about the Vx!!!!! Freedom of speech is the most important freedom we have, and we are one of the last places in the world that have any remnant of that freedom, better exercise it, or it may go away...

x2!!!!

for once...........agreed, fully.....

[Jolly Roger VX'er]

I've worked jobs that are non-union as well as 2 jobs that were union and believe either can succeed if run properly; and feel that alot of the positives found in todays non-union jobs can be traced back to the past when unions fought for those rights.

I don't like how everyone is focused on what unionized work forces are struggling and drawing a generalization from them and applying it to everybody. Sure the car companies that have unions are ready to go under. But, the blame can be spread around in alot of directions. Chrysler is headed up by Bob Nardelli, he used to be MY plant manager...what a useless corporate dictator. Home Depot was dumb enough to hire him as CEO and he about run them into the ground...now Chrysler does the ultimate, dumb move and hires him to run a car company!

If you want to talk about a unionized company that is doing well...look at John Deere.

I personally work for GE. We are union...and even though the GE stock has fell into the toilet...it can all be traced back to GE Capital. It is the black hole of the whole corporation; as even though our unionized manufacturing division was making record profits building locomotives for sale worldwide...The Capital division was busy making bad loans and morgages which in the end sucked away our profits (black hole analogy).

Never felt I was owed anything by anybody. Worked hard for what I've managed to get in my life; only buying what I can afford...I bought a $50k house 9 years ago with a 15yr. morgage with payments that are equivalent to what I paid for rent when living in apartments even though the bank tried diligently to get me to go for a $120k house. Financed and paid for the VX. Saved up & paid outright for a new diesel kubota tractor and suzuki V-Strom motorcycle. Wanted a new sports car...could've gotten a new challenger, camaro or mustang with my credit rating...settled for an '07 Mustang GT (Premium pkg.) coupe w/ 5k miles on odometer for $19k.

Bottom line, having worked minimum waged jobs & factory union jobs...will do whatever is necessary to survive in this world. If this job goes under...I'll most likely look at being a truck driver as my next profession. Change can be good!

P.S.- I tried getting a job as an autoworker 20 years ago. I never did hear what they paid hourly...I just loved cars and thought building them for a living would be FUN. I even tried getting a job at Harley Davidson...came real close...never did hear what they paid...thought building Harley's would be FUN! Notice a pattern here???

[nocturnalVX]

Sure the car companies that have unions are ready to go under. But, the blame can be spread around in alot of directions. Chrysler is headed up by Bob Nardelli, he used to be MY plant manager...what a useless corporate dictator. Home Depot was dumb enough to hire him as CEO and he about run them into the ground...now Chysler does the ultimate, dumb move and hires him to run a car company!

P.S.- I tried getting a job as an autoworker 20 years ago. I never did hear what they paid hourly...I just loved cars and thought building them for a living would be FUN. I even tried getting a job at Harley Davidson...came real close...never did hear what they paid...thought building Harley's would be FUN! Notice a pattern here???

Perfect example!
FACT:
From 1973-1983, Harley-Davidson’s market share went from 78% to 23% as Japanese manufacturers flooded the market with high quality, low priced bikes.

Harley was going to fail because of serious mis-management and the fact that they had a piss-poor product. The company turned around because they not only started to make a better bike, but people that cared about the company took control. Then President Ronald Reagan imposed a tariff on import bikes over 700cc. That gave Harley a little help, and we didn't have to give them billions to take spa vacations. By 1987, Harley was profitable again, and asked the government to end the tariff... yes, THEY stopped it. Since then Harley has opened more factories, dealers, and created thousands of jobs here in America.

The U.S. (made in Canada/Mexico/Germany/South Korean/Australia) auto industry (for the most part) refuses to up their game, but will take money from the taxpayers. Hey! How about that new Pontiac Solstice coupe with the targa top... that you have to leave at home because there is no place to store it in the car. The 1972 Fiat X1/9 even solved THAT mystery. Hope it never rains on your road trip...

[tom4bren]

"As far as things that should not have been said, that's just crazy"

'People who generalize are stupid'

Izzat better?

[Bulldoggie]

I'm 55 today, so I thought I'd share my experience.

Unions are not perfect, but before unions, children labored in the factories, alongside their fathers.
Not only were there no health or retirement packages for workers, they owed for their needs from the employers company store!
Not much different than being owned. (Slaves?)
Unions became worthless, after a President intervened in an AIR traffic controllers strike.
He threw out the union, and BANNED all workers from seeking work in their chosen and highly skilled professions.
the National Labor Relations Board has since changed the rules for unions ability to strike, mandating that they can not interfere with a Businesses rite to carry-on business.

As some of you know, I used to work on Tug boats. (union labor)
Tug boats typically have staterooms for many hands, but through negotiations, crew members were eliminated in favor of more pay, since a deckhand is the cook, engineer, deckhand and barge pilot ect...
A modern crew is One capt. and one deckhand.
The work could not be done with less, and could not be much harder to perform.

We had one strike, management tried to crew One boat, with four "deckhands", and could only move one barge in a full day.
The strike was over in two days.

Twelve years later, a few months after signing a new contract, they sold the boats from under us. I was brought back to the dock for a crew change, only to be met by security guards. My co-workers showing up for their shifts, were met at the gate with paychecks made out to the minute.
Their attorneys poured over the contract, and found the language forbidding the sale or termination of the contract, Had no penalty for doing it spelled out.
I found myself along with everyone I worked with, competing for the lowest few junior positions available, with the few other tug companies.
Only working part-time and being bumped by the 20 year old with no experience, hired days before.

All because another Division involved themselves,with a NON-union contractor, and was sued for poor quality control on a freeway job in Calif.
Yes, my Company built the Glen Jackson bridge over the Columbia river, and dredged the mountain out of the Columbia river after Mt Saint Helens.


Soap Box #2

Even if you hate Michel Moore, You MUST see his film "Sicko".

Why I'm not wealthy today;

90% health coverage, and my share of one summer of Chemo-therapy.

$50k not counting lost wages.

Three broken ribs, punctured lung, crushed talus bone (ankle), dislocated right elbow (sling for 12 months), Angioplasty (2 stents) Diabetes, meds.
Too many back spasms, Due mostly to poor care. Back surgery;
All with expensive cost at a time of little, to no income!

I have never drawn unemployment wages.
I returned to work always with less than recommended healing time.

Add to that a mentally ill ex-wife. a special needs child (not biologically mine) and poor credit, (ex-wife again) and NO family to fall on.
And it becomes impossible to "get ahead"
and at 55, my healthiest years are behind me.

Please don't try to tell me the economy is Union Labor's fault, or American workers are lazy.

But go ahead and complain about the poor non-union quality work that you still pay the same amount for. (or more?)

over

I promised I would not get political on this site, but it is not Labors/unions fault.

And yes, I do know I could have retire well.

Best of health to you all

[Gussie2000]

Ever stop to think that the current financial mess is nothing more than a predicatable cyclic trend?

Sure, a lot of good points were made in this thread about cause & effect (although it did degenerate into a lot of generalizations that should have been left unsaid).

The consumer based economy had gotten so inflated that it HAD to deflate or burst. Cmon, does a city the size of Fredericksburg, VA really needs 3 super WalMarts, 1 Target & 2 super Targets, 9 McDonalds, 5 Burger Kings, 5 Wendys, 48 grocerie stores, 22 auto parts stores, 16 new car dealerships, ... ?

You certainly right about this cycle trend,you see the big corporations in their effort & greed quest to gain more in the market kept "expanding" their portfolio to states & cities where in certain situation they doesn't even need them there,so instead of saving those billions of dollars of capital funds they sort off that spending more will help its stocks @ wall street grow more & faster,sometimes it works,sometimes not & that's what happened to GM opening plants nationwide instead of reducing operation costs on a timely manner,getting rid of brands that doesn't sell any often as before such as oldsmobile,saturn,volvo & saab instead they decide to keep spending just to keep ranked as the biggest manufacturer in the US.Now GM got to reduce its cots because they @ the point lossing not only the gained rank,but almost to disappear

[VCrossfan]

"You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The Government cannot give to anybody anything that the Government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is surely the end of any nation's future."

Abraham Lincoln (not sure if Abe wrote it or Adrian Pierce Rogers)

[HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE]

We are all commie pinko bastards!
Why...
We all drive VX's ...Those were made by the enemy right...
Japs!
We can save this great nation by turning in our faggity looking Vx's and getting something made in the good ol USA!
A nice big lincoln Navigator..it's about as good on gas as a VX but you can put much bigger woofers in the back!
Now that's American!

This country is hit the skids from on thing and one thing only...8 years of having Bush in office. All the crap we are recovering from was from his poor and ineffective management. 911 was on his watch, he had CIA documentation prior to the attack but hey, was way more important to be reading "my pet goat" to schoolkids that day. Katrina happened on his watch, the mortgage meltdown....That was on Bush's watch also.

Republican's love to shift the blame, but the fact is the blame falls squarely on their shoulders...you voted Bush...Good for you brainiac! Now live with the results!
If you think Obama is gonna turn 8 years of governmental retatrdation around in 3 months I have a pork project to sell you.

I also blame the American dream of owning a house for our current financial problems.
So many mortgage brokers selling no money down loans for houses to people who bought into the lie that property is always a good investment.
How many of us were sold on the idea of home ownership since childhood!
Do you really blame the masses of people for buying into it? The notion of a white picket fence and a backyard is powerfully seductive. It is the American Dream..... But like most dreams..you have to be asleep to believe in it.
I also think Americans are at fault for having an attitude of we are #1!
Are we? We have slipped behind other countries in education, infant mortality,economics, and most of all, overall happiness of our citizens.
We are the only country without a healthcare system that includes everyone,
We are recovering from a president who favored religion over science!
Now some of the world has surpassed us in the medical sciences because we were sandbagged by that retard Bush.
I know some of you are gonna be quick with the 'love it or leave it" BS.
Well I do love the USA...I have lived in Hawaii and California and have traveled through most of the lower 48 and for my money this is one of the most beautiful and wonderful countries on the planet. My beef is with the old school who thinks that this country has to be an empire....that we have to be the world police....All the cash we spent blowing up and rebuilding Iraq could have been better spent here.
Here is to better times!

[Scott Harness]

We are all commie pinko bastards!
Why...
We all drive VX's ...Those were made by the enemy right...
Japs!
We can save this great nation by turning in our faggity looking Vx's and getting something made in the good ol USA!
A nice big lincoln Navigator..it's about as good on gas as a VX but you can put much bigger woofers in the back!
Now that's American!

This country is hit the skids from on thing and one thing only...8 years of having Bush in office. All the crap we are recovering from was from his poor and ineffective management. 911 was on his watch, he had CIA documentation prior to the attack but hey, was way more important to be reading "my pet goat" to schoolkids that day. Katrina happened on his watch, the mortgage meltdown....That was on Bush's watch also.

Republican's love to shift the blame, but the fact is the blame falls squarely on their shoulders...you voted Bush...Good for you brainiac! Now live with the results!
If you think Obama is gonna turn 8 years of governmental retatrdation around in 3 months I have a pork project to sell you.

I also blame the American dream of owning a house for our current financial problems.
So many mortgage brokers selling no money down loans for houses to people who bought into the lie that property is always a good investment.
How many of us were sold on the idea of home ownership since childhood!
Do you really blame the masses of people for buying into it? The notion of a white picket fence and a backyard is powerfully seductive. It is the American Dream..... But like most dreams..you have to be asleep to believe in it.
I also think Americans are at fault for having an attitude of we are #1!
Are we? We have slipped behind other countries in education, infant mortality,economics, and most of all, overall happiness of our citizens.
We are the only country without a healthcare system that includes everyone,
We are recovering from a president who favored religion over science!
Now some of the world has surpassed us in the medical sciences because we were sandbagged by that retard Bush.
I know some of you are gonna be quick with the 'love it or leave it" BS.
Well I do love the USA...I have lived in Hawaii and California and have traveled through most of the lower 48 and for my money this is one of the most beautiful and wonderful countries on the planet. My beef is with the old school who thinks that this country has to be an empire....that we have to be the world police....All the cash we spent blowing up and rebuilding Iraq could have been better spent here.
Here is to better times!

Bravo! except for the "faggity VX" part Yea, most people only think their awake!!