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  1. #1
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    I'm all for reducing our carbon footprint too, but that isnt what this plan is doing. It does clearly state that these techniques have tried and failed even in smaller scale situations, meaning if you can't build a house don't try and build a skyscraper. If they wanted to make more eco friendly vehicles, why not put more money into research to develop better powerplants for existing vehicles. You can't just retire a fleet of several hundred million automobiles and not pay for environmentally one way or another. The energy it takes to crush and burn down that many vehicles is going to have a gigantic greenhouse effect. It seems like they're trying to throw a band aid on someone who has been decapitated. To me this looks like another ploy to get car sales back on track since after this bailout, Detroit is just going to go back to their old ways. The current problem isn't that people drive cars that aren't fuel efficient. It's that there is no supply of replacement vehicles that are that are that much better. Tell me what the incentive is for your average yuppie soccer mom type to ditch her giant wasteful SUV of choice for something that costs more, is smaller, and looks retarded(I'm sorry these hybrids and electric cars typically look kinda fruity). I'm telling you it isn't going to happen on environmental conscience alone.
    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on me.

  2. #2
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    the eco problem is

    the eco friendly as they call themselves are designing and advertising to those who are similar in thinking to thgemselves. Those who would seek out and buy these extremely silly looking toys. There are not enough of them to make a difference. Thye need to design an eco friendly vehicle that appeals in looks to the normal driver.

    It is the same people that look at an accident between a Ford Excursion and a Prius. We all see the prius getting mangled by the Excursion and they conclude that the Ford not the Prius is the vehicle that is unsafe.

  3. #3
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    While I don't plan to get in another circuitous environmental argument with you circ, I have to say that using a collision between an Excursion and a Prius for your example isn't exactly a credible justification. That we currently have monstrous Excursions rolling around just because some genius in Detroit a decade or three ago decided that's what America needed to be driving isn't really a justifiable cause for keeping them around any longer. It's proven that it was a wasteful path to have started down, so wouldn't it be best for all involved to just cut our losses and try again before it's too late? That Excursion that seats 12 isn't going to do anyone any good if there isn't anywhere worth driving any more.

    I mean, while I've personally never actually hugged a tree, I'm just saying that it would seem to be in all our best interests to do what we can to help ensure we do at least have some in the future should a person happen to get the urge. Another bonus would still be that whole air-making thing.

    Didn't the I'll-drive-what-I-want-let-the-next-generation-worry-about-it attitude die out back in the 80's?

    And some valid points being made here, but again, it's voluntary. No one is saying you'll have to do it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y33TREKker View Post
    Didn't the I'll-drive-what-I-want-let-the-next-generation-worry-about-it attitude die out back in the 80's?
    I don't think so....that attitude is part of human nature I'm afraid.

    Bart

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by nfpgasmask View Post
    I don't think so....that attitude is part of human nature I'm afraid.

    Bart
    I know, I was just implying that selfishness isn't a reasonable justification either IMO.

  6. #6
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    On top of all that, the so-called "eco-friendly" cars are more detrimental to the environment during their creation than that of a Hummer! http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/...s_more_ec.html
    Sent from my "two hands on a keyboard"

  7. #7
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by ZEUS View Post
    On top of all that, the so-called "eco-friendly" cars are more detrimental to the environment during their creation than that of a Hummer! http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/...s_more_ec.html
    Ahhh yes, there it is again...that damn BIG PICTURE most people like to ignore. Thank you for bringing this up, Justin. Because now, I can once again sit back in my uncomfortable office chair and chuckle to myself, knowing that we are doomed and there is no solution. Why do people think that JUST BECAUSE a car uses some form of propulsion other than gasoline that it is environmentally friendly? Sure, it's different, but it came from somewhere, and surely it has some sort of consequences as well. It's just like recycling. There is a lot of energy spent and pollution created by the recycling industry. But hey, we are saving the planet!!!

    "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

    Bart

  8. #8
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    Here's a point to look at then. If the government wanted to give you $4500 to just switch over to an "eco-mobile", then why don't they? Why do they have to destroy something to make it work? If the "old car" remained out in the world, what would happen? A)Someone else would buy it. B)It would go sit in a junkyard or someones backyard. C)The person would keep it and a son or daughter gets it one day. The thing that bothers me is that the government claims they want to get these cars off the roads, but at what price. It deletes an option for people with lower incomes to be able to afford to drive. You go ahead and tell me when the last time you saw an environmentally friendly vehicle comparable to any of these vehicles that would potentially be destroyed that can be had for the same price or less on the used market. Absolutely never. They don't make cheap hybrids or electric vehicles that work like the vehicles we currently own for a reasonable price. If they did, I'd do like we all should and gut their Eco powerplants and throw it in the VX!

  9. #9
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    Well, all that money that you've saved isn't going to do you any good either if there's nowhere it can be spent. If a person really wants to look at the big picture, the almighty dollar/euro/Yen/etc. just has to be left out of the picture.

    Blasphemous concept to even think about in this day and age I realize, but isn't the fact that money always seems to be everyone's primary concern one of the main reasons we've ended up here in the first place?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nfpgasmask View Post
    Ahhh yes, there it is again...that damn BIG PICTURE most people like to ignore. Thank you for bringing this up, Justin. Because now, I can once again sit back in my uncomfortable office chair and chuckle to myself, knowing that we are doomed and there is no solution. Why do people think that JUST BECAUSE a car uses some form of propulsion other than gasoline that it is environmentally friendly? Sure, it's different, but it came from somewhere, and surely it has some sort of consequences as well. It's just like recycling. There is a lot of energy spent and pollution created by the recycling industry. But hey, we are saving the planet!!!

    "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

    Bart
    Thanks Bart, I happen to work in the Nuclear Power industry, I am actually an instructor right now in Charleston at the Naval Nuclear Power School. The average greenie is an idiot and doesn't understand that a plug in car is far worse than a combustion driven vehicle. Conservation of energy is a bitch. Power has to come from somewhere no matter what. Coal power plants belch more gasses and produce more toxic sludge than 10 times the number of equivalent nuclear plants. Maybe once all the new nuke plants come online, a plug-in may be effective for "round the town" driving, but until our country shrinks in size, big vehicles with the ability to haul the family and the boat will still be a necessity.
    The cost of a hybrid is also prohibitive, pretty sure the average mechanic isn't certified to work on your hybrid, only some guy who went to some special school for 6 months, so no more mom and pop shops.
    Find me a hydrogen powered vehicle and then sign me up

    I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
    Thomas Jefferson

  11. #11
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    why doesnt someone develop something that runs on salt water....we have plenty of that....
    "Do Not Seek Praise. Seek Criticism."

    "If You Can't Solve A Problem, It's Because You're Playing By The Rules."

    "The Perosn Who Doesn't Make Mistakes Is Unlikely To Make Anything."

    -Paul Arden

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nfntruth79 View Post
    Find me a hydrogen powered vehicle and then sign me up
    Oh say WHAT?...whatever happened to all the hydrogen producing "piggyback" systems that some folks around here were experimenting with?
    You know, the ones where you "just add water", & increase your mileage by X amount...
    I seem to remember someone saying that they were going to post the results, wether + or -, but don't recall ever seeing anything more.
    And no, I'm not pickin' on you nfntruth, your comment just kicked the cobwebs off of a few hydrogenated memory cells...

  13. #13
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    what about the lexus 'h' series???

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascinder View Post
    I'm all for reducing our carbon footprint too, but that isnt what this plan is doing. It does clearly state that these techniques have tried and failed even in smaller scale situations, meaning if you can't build a house don't try and build a skyscraper. If they wanted to make more eco friendly vehicles, why not put more money into research to develop better powerplants for existing vehicles. You can't just retire a fleet of several hundred million automobiles and not pay for environmentally one way or another. The energy it takes to crush and burn down that many vehicles is going to have a gigantic greenhouse effect. It seems like they're trying to throw a band aid on someone who has been decapitated. To me this looks like another ploy to get car sales back on track since after this bailout, Detroit is just going to go back to their old ways. The current problem isn't that people drive cars that aren't fuel efficient. It's that there is no supply of replacement vehicles that are that are that much better. Tell me what the incentive is for your average yuppie soccer mom type to ditch her giant wasteful SUV of choice for something that costs more, is smaller, and looks retarded(I'm sorry these hybrids and electric cars typically look kinda fruity). I'm telling you it isn't going to happen on environmental conscience alone.
    There you go. You said it perfectly. Personally, I can't imagine ANYONE in their right mind would take a perfectly good vehicle that they own, like a VX, and turn it in to be crushed for $4500. I mean, maybe a 1995 Honda Civic that is rusted through and through, but not a solid vehicle that otherwise has no cosmetic or mechanical issues. I fully agree that the time and effort should be put into the development of replacment engines for existing cars, ESPECIALLY collector cars from the past and present. Like you said, what are we going to do with 500 million old gasoline engine cars? There will be an environmental consequence regardless of if they are crushed and burned, buried in a landfill or disassembled and recycled. This is a prime example of legislation that fails once again to look at the big picture. There is no simple solution to the global environmental crisis. Like you said, if the government wants to make legislation that really changes things, they need to outlaw the production of gasoline based engines in commuter vehicles and other vehicles that do not need the full power of gas engine. And if they want to start small, that's fine. Imagine what downtown Chicago or New York would smell like if ALL the buses and cabs were electric?

    I agree that SOMETHING must be done going forward, but destroying perfectly good running vehicles for a tax break makes no sense unless the ONLY option is to "upgrade" to an environmentally friendly vehicle, not just a car that gets better gas mileage. It definitely sounds more like an "automobile industry stimulus plan" than a "save the planet" idea.

    Bart

  15. #15
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    I’m all for reducing dependence on fossil fuels and making the country energy independent, but I have a problem with the hole carbon gilt thing.



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