Need Help... CV/axle question

Hi,
Need to know if the front CV axles (cv to cv) are identical left and right.
Napa has them in stock for $87 each, but they are listed as Right side on the part description.
I measured both shafts and they are both 19.75" long.
I was going to just put new boots on, but then found that the cvs are pitted badly and overheated/melted/rubbed/pooled (I hope that's a good enough description).
I know about the Empi's being ok, but has anyone had experience with Napa shafts?
These are new, not rebuilt.
part number: 94-6029
I did a search, but couldn't find this specific info.
Also, I ordered cv boots from Napa and they are Empi brand, relabled for Napa.
So, hoping the cv shafts are Empi too...

Also, if the shafts are not correct, can the CV's be swapped to the original shafts?
Thank you for any help!
---JIM---

Edit: Retracted all statements if/until I'm forced to do my own setup. Since I've heard conflicting information, I am umwilling/unable to provide reliable feedback.

oh, i forgot to mention that i'm not replacing the green cups. I know the cup-shaft lengths are special.

Does that help/change things?

Its an easy install, the half shafts are identical but the jack shafts (inner green cup) are side specific. So yes, order two half shafts with the same part # if you need to replace both sides.

With EMPI, I was not able to swap the CV to the OEM half shaft. Not sure about NAPA.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!
That's exactly what I needed.

Heading for Napa in 20 min.
:)

I wish I spoke whatever language that is.

Believe me... I had to have a crash course in it. It's all about necessity.
:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vendetta

I wish I spoke whatever language that is.

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Wait until you grenade a CV, then you'll learn it all too well...:grino:

I'm starting to feel the relief of not being bi-lingual now. Thanks fellas! ;)

I just put a PS shaft (A1-Cardone) on the DS with no problems. From what i researched both are the same but very few places list them that way.
Good luck, it's not a bad job to do. But I now want to do other shaft and all the ball joints. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FenderBender

Good luck, it's not a bad job to do. But I now want to do other shaft and all the ball joints. :(

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This is not a :( moment, this is a :dance: moment...:yesgray:

Why?...because you have the ability to $ave untold amounts of $$$ by doing it yourself. And when done, the feeling of accomplishment is something that couldn't be bought by the riche$t man in the world...:thumbup:...:_wrench:

Wrench on my VX Bros & Sistrz...:yes:

My Empi shafts have held up well to the abuse I have subjected them to.
For those curious...I enquired at the local Isuzu dealer the cost of replacing both shafts (they would use oem) and it was $1600! And that was like 5-6 years ago.

Ok, I just got back from Napa.

I am really optimistic!
They look great! The cup side splines are not right, but hopefully that won't matter, as long as the balls line up.
The outer splines are correct and the length is correct.... so, crossing fingers!!!

I also am repacking the wheel bearings and replaced the rotors front and rear with drilled/slotted R1 Concept rotors and new ceramic pads.... also, new rear parking brake shoes and a good cleaning of the springs and hardware... they were coated with oil from when I flooded the rear diff and pressurized-out the oil/water through the axle seals to the parking brake area.
I'm stoked so far... hopefully done tonight with all!
I'll let you know.

Thank you for all your help and input!

What type of grease goes on the needle bearing on the inside of the spindle shaft carrier (I have no idea what to call it.)

I'm going to go with wheel bearing grease unless someone says differently.

Actually, now I'm thinking cv grease...since this area is all cv grease related.

NOPE... I think I just found my answer. My Superwinch hubs say to use wheel bearing grease on the hub parts.
I'll do that (again, unless someone convinces me otherwise.) :)

Even though I've read a couple posts on this CV halfshaft issue, I don't understand how the left/right (DS/PS) shafts compare. Looking at the Cardone website, they show the DS unit as needing to be sent in for rebuilding -- if that's ever needed.

Here, I'm guessing SilverBullet used a PS unit as repair for the DS.

Are you pulling apart the shafts and piecing old/new together? If so, are you separating at the inner joint to make everything new from the inner joing to the wheel hub?

BTW,,,When you detach the lower hub (4-bolts) does the halfshaft pull right out of a (splined) hub and (splined) differential?

The "CV" shafts ARE IDENTICAL.

As already stated it is the inner cup / axle half shaft, that is different because of the location of the diff (off centered). Most people do not need to deal with the green cup inwards toward the diff.

Best pricing I have found on all these associated parts is on RockAuto.com and Amazon.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleBeast

The "CV" shafts ARE IDENTICAL.

As already stated it is the inner cup / axle half shaft, that is different because of the location of the diff (off centered). Most people do not need to deal with the green cup inwards toward the diff.

Best pricing I have found on all these associated parts is on RockAuto.com and Amazon.com

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Does not compute. Cardone shows a difference. Local parts shops show a difference. Even my local Isuzu repair facility said they can't get DS (driver's side) shafts.

The statement above says the CV shafts are identical. But it's the inner cup or axle half shaft that's different? Huh? To me, the term "half shaft" and "CV shaft" are interchangeable. But, I'm not a pro mechanic.

Also still interested to know if splined ends just slide into hub and differential.

<cheers>

FWIW, Amazon's pic is what I assume everyone is talking about. OTOH, they do show a sub-section of the entire shaft in the "What other people viewed" section of the Amazon webpage. It looks like the outer 3rd section of the entire halfshaft....
http://www.amazon.com/EMPI-Axle-Asse...8332037&sr=8-1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 89Vette

The statement above says the CV shafts are identical. But it's the inner cup or axle half shaft that's different? Huh? To me, the term "half shaft" and "CV shaft" are interchangeable. But, I'm not a pro mechanic.

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The axle shafts within the front axle housing are of unequal length, the outer half shafts=same-same...:_wrench:

Front axle must be dropped, & diff brackets removed, to get the axles/third member out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ldub

The axle shafts within the front axle housing are of unequal length, the outer half shafts=same-same...:_wrench:

Front axle must be dropped, & diff brackets removed, to get the axles/third member out.

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And, to get the CV shafts out, you don't need to drop/touch the diff/axle-housing, right?

Mostly, I'm just trying to learn on the back of this (apparently) completed thread.

The CV shaft (to me) looks like it reachs from the hub to the diff housing. It's about 18-19" long and has two boots on it. One looks like it's accordian and covers a swivel joint. The other just looks straight and covers who-knows-what. What's inside the inner "bulge" on a CV shaft? Why isn't the CV shaft a simple rod with swivel-joint on the outer end?

Here is the NAPA replacement axle.
This is the part that is "identical" from left to right:
http://ppl.ug/qR4uY0Yc2kQ/

These are the green cups that the bare CV portion of the above axles go into:
http://ppl.ug/TrAWAsX9mVc/
http://ppl.ug/kIf9EE7UgFE/

The green cups have, on one side, a long shaft (the part that is hard to find/buy) attached to it. On the other side, is a green cup that has the short shaft attached to it (available at stores).
Both of these shafts are located inside the differential.

Hope this helps...
---JIM---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 89Vette

Why isn't the CV shaft a simple rod with swivel-joint on the outer end?

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Ummmmmmm...cuz you weren't there that day, so they didn't let you design it?...:confused:

:laughing:..:rotate:..:laughing:

Sorry vette, i have no control over sarcasm...:flower:

The real answer is: because there is too much travel for a standard U-joint to handle.

Here's a good overview...http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...XlhRgu-YdXCv7g

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ldub

Ummmmmmm...cuz you weren't there that day, so they didn't let you design it?...:confused:

:laughing:..:rotate:..:laughing:

Sorry vette, i have no control over sarcasm...:flower:

The real answer is: because there is too much travel for a standard U-joint to handle.

Here's a good overview...http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...XlhRgu-YdXCv7g

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Too much travel....that makes sense. Add a 2nd bendable joint so the primary one doesn't have to run so "angularly".

I appreciate the humor. No problems there! :bwgy:

I'd already tried the Wikipedia thing. I already knew the basics, but had trouble visualizing what instructions here said (PDFs), what I'd heard from one/two other people, and what I'd caught in an occasional post about the subject.

Still seems funny that so many sources are confused about the R vs L compatibility of CVs!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SilverBullet75

Here is the NAPA replacement axle.
This is the part that is "identical" from left to right:
http://ppl.ug/qR4uY0Yc2kQ/

These are the green cups that the bare CV portion of the above axles go into:
http://ppl.ug/TrAWAsX9mVc/
http://ppl.ug/kIf9EE7UgFE/

The green cups have, on one side, a long shaft (the part that is hard to find/buy) attached to it. On the other side, is a green cup that has the short shaft attached to it (available at stores).
Both of these shafts are located inside the differential.

Hope this helps...
---JIM---

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Oh! So, the green cup isn't part of the CV halfshaft! It's the "receiver" where you slide the CV axle into!?!?!

Somehow, I was picturing the inner green cup as being ON the CV axle. I thought it must be the inner "bulge" on the CV unit. IOW, I kinda thought you were talking about the non-accordian inner rubber sleeve/protector that's held on by bands.

Cup sounded more like rubber than metal.

Now that I understand that, I assume the CV axle simply slides in the cup -- which sits at the outer end of the axle housing. How often do people worry about pulling the outer axle bearing for replacement or service?

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=21040

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 89Vette

Oh! So, the green cup isn't part of the CV halfshaft! It's the "receiver" where you slide the CV axle into!?!?!

Yup...:yesgray:

Somehow, I was picturing the inner green cup as being ON the CV axle. I thought it must be the inner "bulge" on the CV unit. IOW, I kinda thought you were talking about the non-accordian inner rubber sleeve/protector that's held on by bands.

Cup sounded more like rubber than metal.

Now that I understand that, I assume the CV axle simply slides in the cup -- which sits at the outer end of the axle housing.

Yup...:yesgray:

How often do people worry about pulling the outer axle bearing for replacement or service?

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Which one?

The one's in the center section, (inboard of the green cup) are lubed by the gear lube in the c-section.

The outers on the end of the half shafts, are greased & sealed about the same as any other front wheel bearing...:_wrench: (every 30,000 mi)

The main difference being the drive flanges, etc, pertaining to the 4wd aspect of the front axle. (as shown in the link Jonnie posted)

There's a service interval chart around here somewhere...:_thinking

http://www.vehicross.info/modules.ph...warticle&id=26

:luck:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 89Vette

Oh! So, the green cup isn't part of the CV halfshaft! It's the "receiver" where you slide the CV axle into!?!?!

Somehow, I was picturing the inner green cup as being ON the CV axle. I thought it must be the inner "bulge" on the CV unit. IOW, I kinda thought you were talking about the non-accordian inner rubber sleeve/protector that's held on by bands.

Cup sounded more like rubber than metal.

Now that I understand that, I assume the CV axle simply slides in the cup -- which sits at the outer end of the axle housing. How often do people worry about pulling the outer axle bearing for replacement or service?

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Not to split hairs ... but ... it's what I do.

The green cup is part of the Constant Velocity (CV) Joint. A CV joint is in reality a bearing on steroids & the green cup is the outer race.

Part of the problem with talking about CVs & half shafts is that there is so much mis-use of terminology and slang terms that it all gets very confusing.

There was a thread a couple of years ago called "CVs for dummies" that had a drawing & the correct terminology. Also, last time I checked, wikipedia had a pretty cool animated graphic of a CV joint.

I've been told that the term "half shaft" really means the entire assembly (from splined shaft entering 3rd member to splined shaft entering hub). More commonly, the half shaft seems to mean what the pros call the "center shaft" which is the solid shaft between the two green cups and includes the "star" (inner race), Ball Bearings, & Cage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

Not to split hairs ... but ... it's what I do.

The green cup is part of the Constant Velocity (CV) Joint. A CV joint is in reality a bearing on steroids & the green cup is the outer race.

Part of the problem with talking about CVs & half shafts is that there is so much mis-use of terminology and slang terms that it all gets very confusing.

There was a thread a couple of years ago called "CVs for dummies" that had a drawing & the correct terminology. Also, last time I checked, wikipedia had a pretty cool animated graphic of a CV joint.

I've been told that the term "half shaft" really means the entire assembly (from splined shaft entering 3rd member to splined shaft entering hub). More commonly, the half shaft seems to mean what the pros call the "center shaft" which is the solid shaft between the two green cups and includes the "star" (inner race), Ball Bearings, & Cage.

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From one hair-splitter to another, thanks! :bwgy:

When I looked at the picture of the NAPA CV axle, it took a second, harder look to notice it didn't have the green cup and inner 3rd piece. When you look at pics on the net -- especially EMPIs at Amazon, the implication is the inner green cup and axle are included.

I went back and looked at the pics of the two CV boot swap instruction threads and finally realized that inner, green CV "cup" isn't being purchased with these CV axles. I also realized you can't tell if Amazon (or other vendors would include that or not. I assume not. Since Amazon has two options, I can't really tell what they sell (IOW, what parts of the CV axle would be present).

The CV boot swap threads also don't address pulling the outboard end from the wheel/suspension. Maybe I've yet to find the correct r/r procedure on this forum. The one just bumped to the top of VXTalk is nice for identifying the parts.

Vette,

Correct, IIRC the Mechatech install instructions do not describe removing the splined shaft from the hub assembly. For those instructions, go to the How2 section and get Kenny's bearing repack write-up.

http://www.vehicross.info/modules.ph...warticle&id=59

Also consider that all of the vendors that we've talked to seem to only supply the tripod version (3 ball bearing). Rumor has it that it'll fit into our 6 ball bearing cup. My concern for this swap would be strength and binding at full articulation ... but members say that they work just fine.

Tom

I've done a lot of searching and haven't found any info on how to remove the shafts/cups from the differential. Anyone have any instructions/tips/pics?

Here ya go:

http://www.vehicross.info/modules.ph...warticle&id=49

Thank you Tom!
That's perfect!
:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

Vette,

Correct, IIRC the Mechatech install instructions do not describe removing the splined shaft from the hub assembly. For those instructions, go to the How2 section and get Kenny's bearing repack write-up.

http://www.vehicross.info/modules.ph...warticle&id=59

Also consider that all of the vendors that we've talked to seem to only supply the tripod version (3 ball bearing). Rumor has it that it'll fit into our 6 ball bearing cup. My concern for this swap would be strength and binding at full articulation ... but members say that they work just fine.

Tom

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The NAPA unit pictured by SilverBullit shows at least 3 ball bearings in view. I'd assume the other 3 are present on the backside of the pic. Am I misunderstanding your point?

OK. I looked at the bearing repack procedure. Once the hub is pulled, I assume you're telling me the CV "halfshaft" free to come out?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 89Vette

The NAPA unit pictured by SilverBullit shows at least 3 ball bearings in view. I'd assume the other 3 are present on the backside of the pic.

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That is correct. 6 balls on NAPA CVs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

Also consider that all of the vendors that we've talked to seem to only supply the tripod version (3 ball bearing). Rumor has it that it'll fit into our 6 ball bearing cup. My concern for this swap would be strength and binding at full articulation ... but members say that they work just fine.

Tom

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Been there... failed trying that. :bwgy:

The aftermarket tripod style CV does not fit our green CV cup. You will get tripods if you order the half shaft + jack shaft (inner shaft) together. Since the tripods are much beefier than our six ball bearing rzeppa CV, I thought it would be a nice upgrade for strength. I was able to purchase both tripod jack shaft from EMPI (you cannot buy rzeppa aftermarket) along with two half shafts. I found that the tripods would bind at IFS droop which made the ride harsh, clunky, & truthfully made the VX worse. The project was a big waste of time and money.

Since I can't buy the rzeppa cup jack shaft aftermarket, I have a backup set of jack shafts from a VX. I suggest that anyone who's lifted & goes wheeling do the same. You can get rzeppa jack shafts from most ISUZUs: Trooper, SLX, Rodeo, Amigo, passport, & VX

If I understand the design correctly, the CV axles drive the front wheels thru those bearing-to-groove slots in the joints. IOW, they act just like a gear, interlocking to move the axle.

While I understand how the design allows for 360-degree articulation of the wheel, there's one thing I'm not sure of....

In my past experience with a failing CV joint, I know exactly what a popping joint sounds like during a turn. I know how to tell when a FWD unit sounds when it's failing. My question is whether it's the same for 4WD.

Is it possible for failing CV joints/axles to make noise similar to a wheel bearing noise WITHOUT having the classic popping sounds while turning?

I notice some mild vibration around 55mph. In a thread about 1yr ago, I proposed it might be engine noise. But, I've yet to confirm that. Many talk about the noisy hwy performance of the VX, but I'm still not willing to give up on any possibility.

Any opinions on the possibility of CV joints making noise running in a straight line?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 89Vette

If I understand the design correctly, the CV axles drive the front wheels thru those bearing-to-groove slots in the joints. IOW, they act just like a gear, interlocking to move the axle.

While I understand how the design allows for 360-degree articulation of the wheel, there's one thing I'm not sure of....

In my past experience with a failing CV joint, I know exactly what a popping joint sounds like during a turn. I know how to tell when a FWD unit sounds when it's failing. My question is whether it's the same for 4WD.

Is it possible for failing CV joints/axles to make noise similar to a wheel bearing noise WITHOUT having the classic popping sounds while turning?

I notice some mild vibration around 55mph. In a thread about 1yr ago, I proposed it might be engine noise. But, I've yet to confirm that. Many talk about the noisy hwy performance of the VX, but I'm still not willing to give up on any possibility.

Any opinions on the possibility of CV joints making noise running in a straight line?

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The CVs can cause vibrations if they're going bad.

First, I would check the u joints on the drive shaft as they will definitely cause vibrations if you don't grease them regularly.

..and put the VX in 4lo on an appropriate surface & make some circles. If you have CV problems, you'll hear them click/pop.

Ditto what VXorado said.

When my inner CV boot ripped, and I didn't catch it until it was too late, I was getting some vibrations at various speeds that I thought was a drive shaft issue or a transmission mount issue. Got under the VX, greased the U-joints, and slip joint in the drive shaft, checked the transmission mount bolts and still had the vibrations. Checked the CV joints on the front axle and realized that the boot was torn, and gunk had gotten in there and effed up the joint. Had to have the green cup removed and re-machined.

Since the front axle is hard mounted to the frame, I was feeling the vibrations from the bad drivers side inner CV joint in the floor boards below my feet.

Also, check the transmission mounting bolts. Others have had some vibrations, or clunks, due to the bolts backing themselves out allowing the transmission to move around.

One more shot in the dark; check your engine mounts. If one is bad/broken it would allow things to move around and possibly cause a vibration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MSHardeman

Had to have the green cup removed and re-machined.

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How does that work? I picture it as the inside of a half-sphere with grooves for the opposite "knuckle". If the boot rips and it's contaminated, doesn't that cause scarring/pitting? How would you "machine" that out?

:confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 89Vette

How does that work? I picture it as the inside of a half-sphere with grooves for the opposite "knuckle". If the boot rips and it's contaminated, doesn't that cause scarring/pitting? How would you "machine" that out?

:confused:

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Try picturing it as a cylinder, with machined grooves, where the balls transfer energy, & are able to move in & out (mmmmmm...horizontal...)...then picture having BIGGER balls...after machining...:yesgray:

Or...
They weld the scarring and then re-machine the inners. I believe it littlebeast had that done.