WikiLeaks

[Marlin]

Murder is universally recognized as being "not ok" so that's not a valid analogy. Let's turn the tables - if an american living in America were to publish Chinese classified materials would that be OK?

No it wouldn't be ok...and we haven't done that, but at least you get the point
Is the fact that a bee has a stinger a threat? There is no intent to threaten anyone. Wikileaks' intent is to keep the promise they made to the whistleblowers - not to save their own butts.

A bee never threatened anyone(well, except the african honey bee), they don't go out and attack other creatures and threaten retribution if they are forced to face any consequences. Good retort though, I like it (honestly, no sarcasm, I thoroughly enjoy good logic sparring)


Don't over-generalize "grave and irreparable" danger - "too big to fail" is just a political catch phrase not a legal term. Similarly the failure of some government operations needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Very few of them would qualify as "grave an irreparable."

I think 9 trillion in loans is enough to qualify as irreparable. If it wasn't true, you would have to send the Fed (which is NOT A PART OF THE GOVERNMENT, to jail for unfair lending practices)

Anonymous is nothing more than a bunch of individuals - all of their plans are made in public and anyone can join - if you want to be part of Anonymous all you have to do is say you are. They are not centralized, there is no members-only secret website, membership rules or even a members list. Not all of Anonymous even agrees with anything other parts of Anonymous do.
And to this one I throw the B u l l s h i t flag. Every group has its leaders, regardless of the forum. If you think for a second that there aren't a few old schoolers that drive the party, you are very ignorant, which I doubt based on your responses. Just look at our forum, there are a few that kind of "run the show". This is just a small truck forum, imagine how bad it must be on some geeky hacker forum The senior guys say go, the NUBs just follow. Tis human nature. If no one was in charge, nothing would ever happen.

There is always someone in charge. Do some research on the Rothchilds, Queen of england...there are a few families that have more money combined than the the rest of the 95% of the world put together. I am a fan of prisonplanet.com.

[Stephen Biko]

if an american living in America were to publish Chinese classified materials would that be OK?

No it wouldn't be ok...and we haven't done that, but at least you get the point

Seems to be OK with the US government if a Chinese citizen does it.

A bee never threatened ... retribution if they are forced to face any consequences.

You are assuming your own premise. Wikileaks has never made a threat. It is circular logic to say it is a threat just because you say it's a threat. You choose to view their actions in a certain light and ignore their own published goals. There is not a single statement from wikileaks or Assange regarding the insurance file that suggests a threat. You are encouraged to quote one to prove otherwise.

I think 9 trillion in loans is enough to qualify as irreparable.

There is zero legal precedent for your interpretation.

Every group has its leaders, regardless of the forum.

I'm sure Anonymous has plenty of little sub-groups with more formalized structures, but the group as a whole is completely fluid. You can read up on their inherent lack of structure.

[Marlin]

Seems to be OK with the US government if a Chinese citizen does it.

You are assuming your own premise. Wikileaks has never made a threat. It is circular logic to say it is a threat just because you say it's a threat. You choose to view their actions in a certain light and ignore their own published goals. There is not a single statement from wikileaks or Assange regarding the insurance file that suggests a threat. You are encouraged to quote one to prove otherwise.

There is zero legal precedent for your interpretation.


I'm sure Anonymous has plenty of little sub-groups with more formalized structures, but the group as a whole is completely fluid. You can read up on their inherent lack of structure.

I am not saying that the release of the documents was the threat, but rather the fact that he said if you try to imprison or prosecute me, my 'friends' will release this info. If you do this, I will retaliate. That is a threat. Not sure how circular that logic is.

As far as the banks, there is nothing he could release that would change anything. They took 9 trillion dollars in virtually interest free loans!!!!!! If that isn't enough to topple them, then nothing is. 9 trillion, that is like half of our deficit, all to one group of people, who turned around and paid their CEOs ridiculous sums of money with it. JPM controls the price of silver by selling silver they don't have, the banks are gobbling up land one piece at a time. Soon that land will belong to government.

We bailed out failing auto companies, and let them keep their unions, the mos crippling facet of their whole process.

We GIVE away billions of dollars in aid to foreign countries that don't even like us.

We are condoning illegal actions (immigration)

What more do you need to topple an empire? Americans are passive, touchy feely, *******. We are so engaged on PC BS, making everything fair, making everything safe, that we have forgotten what is important. Freedom and Justice.

We are at a point where if someone doesn't tell you what to do, then you won't do it.

As I said, I think we share similar views, just not on this specific topic.

[don moore]

whats wikileaks....???
I think everything that is on the internet is real..lol.... if you make a big deal out of it ..then more people will want to know what its about ..so lets try to get everyone involved by making a big deal about it ...if they did it the old way ..one one would care and the persons involved would some how end up having a accident or heat atact.and it would be over .lets see wiki leaks has been doing this for how long and now they are doing something about it ..lol
get real
..thx gang....

[technocoy]

Uh, I don't need much insight.

"2. Congress is also considering allowing gays to openly join and serve in the military. Considering the spy who leaked this info is a homosexual who had a hissy fit and decided leaking secret documents was the way to go can we allow them to serve if this is what can be expected?"

I think you put it out there for all to see. I'm not the one making stereotypical and bigotry-tinged remarks. But you got me! I'm a crazy uber-lefty commie who lives for coming to my favorite message board and calling people out in the name of homosexuals everywhere!!!!! They call me PC MAN!

"I am for the right of gays to serve in the military."

Then maybe consider editing your statements a bit better, because that pretty obviously comes off as against it or at least having serious doubts about it. Which isn't even the major issue.

It was less about whether you agree with it or not, as I would be willing to have a healthy debate about it were it just that. It was more your condescending and stereotypical tone about it that caused my reaction. See there are people who have folks they care about that get upset when people make crappy remarks like that...

Freudian slip, maybe. Honest mistake in sentence structure? I could maybe see that, but based on another thread where you came in guns a blazing and not thinking about what you type, or even reading source material in it's entirety before posting a flame about it, it's obvious that if nothing else, maybe you should slow down and think about things a bit before you post them.

The reality here is that though we are all friends through a common interest here, our differences vary beyond that. Calling you out on it has nothing to do with an issue with my own views as much as an issue with those close to me putting their lives on the line and then having other folks doubt their resolve. So yes, I DID take it personal.

Not sure about the rest of the post. It's so double talk and hypocritical I'll have to read it a few times to figure it out.

The reality is, were we at a meet, on 99% of things you and I and everyone here could probably have a beer, have some great conversation and debate some great questions (or just work on our rides). I'm not trying to make you out to be some kind of monster here, Circmand, I'm just letting you know that sometimes there are other people in the room, and those people may have someone they care about in harms way. I'm not saying you gotta be PC all the time, but when you start making insinuations about a whole group of people you also can't expect NOT to piss anyone off at all.

If I misread your intent, I apologize for calling you a bigot, but I can't see where that statement implied anything else.

To everyone else, I apologize for the off-topic rants.

Cheers,
Technocoy

[Stephen Biko]

Not sure about the rest of the post. It's so double talk and hypocritical I'll have to read it a few times to figure it out.

It was standard "some of my closest friends are black" defense. Troll or caricature I dunno, but off the charts funny either way.

[Stephen Biko]

I am not saying that the release of the documents was the threat, but rather the fact that he said if you try to imprison or prosecute me, my 'friends' will release this info. If you do this, I will retaliate. That is a threat. Not sure how circular that logic is.

Again show me ONE quote from wikileaks or Assange saying he is going to retaliate. The guy voluntarily went into custody on the Swedish warrant and no one has released the password for the insurance file. Lots of political commentators want people to see the situation the way you describe it, but when you go looking for the evidence to support that viewpoint it is not there.

As far as the banks, there is nothing he could release that would change anything.

First it was "grave and irreparable danger" and now nothing at all.

[circmand]

Again show me ONE quote from wikileaks or Assange saying he is going to retaliate. The guy voluntarily went into custody on the Swedish warrant and no one has released the password for the insurance file. Lots of political commentators want people to see the situation the way you describe it, but when you go looking for the evidence to support that viewpoint it is not there.



First it was "grave and irreparable danger" and now nothing at all.

he turned him self in for the rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force in separate incidents he commited not the treason he comitted. Then after ducking that crime for all this time he wanted bail. On top of that he walked out of a TV interview when questioned about those crimes. Apparently he thinks what he wants kept secret should be kept secret but he can publish what he wants to publish.

Also as far as threats they not only have been made but several carried out when Visa, Mastercard were experienced hacker attacks when they stopped funneling money to further ***-anges attempt to help terrorists. Attackinga cyber site that was legally opting out is a crime. So much for his innocent journalism lies.

In 1992, he pleaded guilty to 24 charges of hacking this is not a journalist

[Stephen Biko]

not the treason he comitted.

Treason? Are you trolling? Come on, you can admit it. Not even a hardcore jingoist could believe that.

[technocoy]

Look at you Crotchrocket. You sneaky dog. You done threw a molotov and ran!!!! Hahahah.

You know, I'm not sure where I'm at yet with the Assange thing. I know there are a lot of variables at play, and there is a lot of grey area.

I want to see what he has on the banks. That's the kind of information I would like to see keeping these bastards honest. I find it funny that when he announced the bank leak is when all the congressmen really found that it was all of a sudden an emergency to shut this guy down. Self-preservation at work maybe?

What I do know, is that someone's bigot flag just flew.

"2. Congress is also considering allowing gays to openly join and serve in the military. Considering the spy who leaked this info is a homosexual who had a hissy fit and decided leaking secret documents was the way to go can we allow them to serve if this is what can be expected?"

Really? I mean, REALLY?

First of all I can respect nearly every point of view so far in this thread. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I can respect them.

This however is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. It personally offends me, and I'm not even gay. Not because you support don't ask don't tell necessarily. I think there was a time where it protected gays more than anything else. More because your statement tells a lot about your character and decision making.

WTF does the person in question being gay have to do with why they chose to leak the information? You know how many things have been leaked over the years by straight folks? Oh wait, pretty much ALL of it. Should we ban straight folks from serving because they obviously are easier to make into spies? Your logic is quite silly and morally idiotic.

Anyone can feel wronged or feel they are doing something just that other don't agree with, straight people included. I don't know enough about the leaker to make any more judgement than that. It's the broader implication here I want to speak to.

ANY person that has the strength and capacity to serve his or her country in the military should be allowed. If they are brave enough to go fight and possibly die for the land and people they love then they are alright by me. PERIOD. Through the years our fighting force has only gotten better, stronger and smarter and has constantly become more and more diversified.

I can promise you, having several very close gay and lesbian friends (two of which have served in the military on hazard duty) that they are not trying to sneak up from behind on some straight dude/dudette. They are gay and like other gay people, most can't even identify with the majority of straight people. If anything, they should toss out the idiots who CAN'T deal with it because it seems to me they can't mentally compete with even the most basic pressure or stress. I bet that when my buddy helped a group of soldiers survive an ambush in a back alley of baghdad they didn't question his resolve and they damn sure didn't take back their appreciation when they found out he was gay.

The sad thing is that because of don't ask don't tell he served 3 tours at a year each and wasn't able to tell his partner how much he cared for them on the phone for fear of being thrown out, and often feared calling them at all. He couldn't talk about his loved ones when sharing stories about missing home with his fellow soldiers. He was isolated from the person he loved much more than his fellow soldiers, yet he still performed his job admirably and above the bar.

He took two shots for his country in his time there and he did it all while feeling like he was being **** on by the very people he was protecting. That's how much he loves his country. He did all this for his friends, family, fellow Americans and all the sorry bigoted asses that have been so quick to condemn people because they are different. That in my opinion makes him a bigger man that most.

If someone is so weird and weak-minded that all they can think about while in the service is about how someone else goes about having sex, maybe they need their head examined. They are certainly a pervert. Do you also sit around imagining your squadmate getting it off with his girlfriend? Is that soothing vs stressful? Does that increase moral vs decrease? Jesus Christ.

I definitely don't find a person like that strong-minded and intelligent enough to fight along those that can.

I truly hope that if you are ever in a life threatening situation with a homosexual fighting at your side that A: they don't take a break to ask if you're straight, and B: they don't see your true colors.

I'll post more about Assange when I'm not so disgusted at the hypocrisy I'm seeing.

[circmand]

What I do know, is that someone's bigot flag just flew.

"2. Congress is also considering allowing gays to openly join and serve in the military. Considering the spy who leaked this info is a homosexual who had a hissy fit and decided leaking secret documents was the way to go can we allow them to serve if this is what can be expected?"

Really? I mean, REALLY?

First of all I can respect nearly every point of view so far in this thread. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I can respect them.

This however is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. It personally offends me, and I'm not even gay. Not because you support don't ask don't tell necessarily. I think there was a time where it protected gays more than anything else. More because your statement tells a lot about your character and decision making.

WTF does the person in question being gay have to do with why they chose to leak the information? You know how many things have been leaked over the years by straight folks? Oh wait, pretty much ALL of it. Should we ban straight folks from serving because they obviously are easier to make into spies? Your logic is quite silly and morally idiotic.

Anyone can feel wronged or feel they are doing something just that other don't agree with, straight people included. I don't know enough about the leaker to make any more judgement than that. It's the broader implication here I want to speak to.

ANY person that has the strength and capacity to serve his or her country in the military should be allowed. If they are brave enough to go fight and possibly die for the land and people they love then they are alright by me. PERIOD. Through the years our fighting force has only gotten better, stronger and smarter and has constantly become more and more diversified.

I can promise you, having several very close gay and lesbian friends (two of which have served in the military on hazard duty) that they are not trying to sneak up from behind on some straight dude/dudette. They are gay and like other gay people, most can't even identify with the majority of straight people. If anything, they should toss out the idiots who CAN'T deal with it because it seems to me they can't mentally compete with even the most basic pressure or stress. I bet that when my buddy helped a group of soldiers survive an ambush in a back alley of baghdad they didn't question his resolve and they damn sure didn't take back their appreciation when they found out he was gay.

The sad thing is that because of don't ask don't tell he served 3 tours at a year each and wasn't able to tell his partner how much he cared for them on the phone for fear of being thrown out, and often feared calling them at all. He couldn't talk about his loved ones when sharing stories about missing home with his fellow soldiers. He was isolated from the person he loved much more than his fellow soldiers, yet he still performed his job admirably and above the bar.

He took two shots for his country in his time there and he did it all while feeling like he was being **** on by the very people he was protecting. That's how much he loves his country. He did all this for his friends, family, fellow Americans and all the sorry bigoted asses that have been so quick to condemn people because they are different. That in my opinion makes him a bigger man that most.

If someone is so weird and weak-minded that all they can think about while in the service is about how someone else goes about having sex, maybe they need their head examined. They are certainly a pervert. Do you also sit around imagining your squadmate getting it off with his girlfriend? Is that soothing vs stressful? Does that increase moral vs decrease? Jesus Christ.

I definitely don't find a person like that strong-minded and intelligent enough to fight along those that can.

I truly hope that if you are ever in a life threatening situation with a homosexual fighting at your side that A: they don't take a break to ask if you're straight, and B: they don't see your true colors.
.

Apparently you have some insight no one else does that allows you to see into my mind on how I feel and how I think. However it doesnt seem to be working or you are transferring your own issues on to me because you are unwilling to face them. I was big into debate into school. For those like the poster here that do not understand debate you are given an issue and the side you need to argue. Whether you agree or not you must argue that side. Thta being said the best way to win your side is to figure out what points the other side will argue and have a counter to that point. Crying and yelling and calling names will NOT win a debate no matter how much you do it. Only well thought out arguements and points count.

Now while I am under no obligation to defend myself against unsubstantiated name calling I will list a few points. I am for the right of gays to serve in the military. I once lived with for several years several homosexuals. We had a great time we got along great we often had debates of this nature without any of us being offended and remain friends over 20 years later. Perhaps you can call my friends up and tell them you have deduced I hate gays without having met me and after their 20+ years of association with me they are too stupid to realize.

Actually the most idiotic statement I ever read is the one in your post. How you are so offended although you are not gay. Because for you to be so offended by something that does not affect you directly but still feel the need to point out you are not gay really says something about you. Do you feel homosexuals are so unable to defend themselves that they need you to rush to their defense? IF you think they cannot defend themselves in a debate of ideas I have to think you really dont beleive they can defend themselves in battle.

I actually dont beleive that is the case however. I think you are just another liberal who thinks they know everything. If you disagree with Obama you are a racist. If you dont want to pay higher taxes for entitlement programs you hate the elderly or the poor or the children etc. Liberals always have these urges to put in place feel good programs that cost a fortune never solve the problem then want to throw away more money and god forbid if someone questions why you resort to calling names. I guess the elite liberals resort to calling names because us stoopid conservatives wouldnt understand your facts if you ever bothered to state them. (BTW I spelled Stupid incorrectly on purpose as sarcasm. I felt I should state that as liberals never seem to have a sense of humor or understand sarcasm)

[VXR]

I was big into debate into school

Did you ever win any

[circmand]

Did you ever win any

Yes even at the national level, mostly Lincoln Douglas.

As for the friends I wouldn't paste their names or numbers but I am secure in knowing I am right. They will enjoy this as well

Treason? Yes there is no doubt that the military individual who stole the secret documents violated his sworn oath he took and will be found guilty. Those here who have any legal background can vouch that if you knowngly participate by dispensing the data you have a high percentage of being convicted as aiding and abetting. Given Wikileaks actually knowlingly and willingly participated in the act of diseminating secret documents where they had to know sworn enemies of the US would access them that is an easy case to make. And doing this act can in no way be defended as journalism.

and Technocoy I have no hard feelings. Rereading my posts the use of hissy fit was a term that could have been replaced but I really couldnt think of a better term at the time. As for the rest I was simply putting forth an issue that will come up using the least amount of words so as not to sway it in one way or another so the responses that were received would show the predispositon of the responder. It is quite similar to an ink blot test. And trust me that arguement will be made by those against dont ask dont tell.

[IRONVIKING]

I feel its all a waste of time. Its all over the news and really its all crap. All it is is a way to distract people from how bad things really are. All our politicians are self serving and have little to no honor. They dont serve the people anymore. I hope this whole thing helps to weed out the losers we have in office and maybe it will bring people to the forefront who really do care about this country. People who are not worried about whats said about them or dug up ,because they have nothing to hide and what they have done or said was in the best interest of the people and not their bank accounts.
Wikileaks is wikiwack, but not as wack as the people who are worried about whats being leaked.
My 2 cents.
Peace

[VXIRONwoMAN]

Like any other spy both he and the soldier who fed him the info should be given a military trial and summarily executed.

That makes them guilty to. Kill them too. They may have access but they cant release it when they are dead or wont once they start dieing. This is simply extortion. Yu dont deal with terrorists you kill them.

The information he posts is still illegal, like it or not. There is no difference between what he is doing and if a bank robber gave you a bag of money, and you went and spent it knowing where it came from. It is still against the law!!

What's with all this posting of the cables being illegal stuff. It's only illegal because our government says it is. At one point is was illegal for blacks to marry whites... Just because big brother says it's illegal doesn't mean that it's wrong.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but its like a magic show, "Look over here, watch this hand", meanwhile, what is happening with the other hand? Its all too pretty.

I like that analogy.

He has two core assumptions. First is that authoritarian organizations need secrecy to thrive. Second is that secrecy is a barrier to effective communication. He believes that demonstrating leaks to an authoritarian organization will cause it to increase its secrecy. Pushed far enough, that secrecy makes the organization cumbersome and inflexible, allowing opponents to easily get inside its OODA loop. The end result is that the organization must choose between curbing its authoritarian tendencies or collapse.

You are a genius. I have to stop multi-quoting you...But I agree with majority of what you are saying. A+

So if he were a citizen of a country that had legalized murder, it would be ok for him to murder Americans? Your logic or lack there of makes no sense. Once again, I go back to the bank robber analogy, lets say the stolen money given to you was Canadian, does it make it an more legal for you to spend it?

Marlin, you are debating with emotion and you are not making sense. Analogies are good for expressing feelings. Not when refuting facts.

Don't get me wrong, I am against a big government... Its almost as if the whole thing is staged to allow the implementation of an internet censureship branch of the government. Add that up with TSA:
A few years ago, we threw a fit about taking off our shoes at the airport, now we would be grateful if that was it. How many bombs has TSA stopped? None. The only two in a decade that were stopped were stopped by the individual's error and other passengers. Now they want to add the scanners to sporting events, train/bus stations, and how many bombs have been exploded there? None. This is all a gambit to get the average idiot to accept control by the government.

Don't even get me started on TSA! It's a joke! I was a flight attendant and dealt with them multiple times a day. That's a whole other thread...

We are condoning illegal actions (immigration)

Immigration is NOT illegal!

Apparently you have some insight no one else does that allows you to see into my mind on how I feel and how I think. However it doesnt seem to be working or you are transferring your own issues on to me because you are unwilling to face them. I was big into debate into school. For those like the poster here that do not understand debate you are given an issue and the side you need to argue. Whether you agree or not you must argue that side. Thta being said the best way to win your side is to figure out what points the other side will argue and have a counter to that point. Crying and yelling and calling names will NOT win a debate no matter how much you do it. Only well thought out arguements and points count.

Now while I am under no obligation to defend myself against unsubstantiated name calling I will list a few points. I am for the right of gays to serve in the military. I once lived with for several years several homosexuals. We had a great time we got along great we often had debates of this nature without any of us being offended and remain friends over 20 years later. Perhaps you can call my friends up and tell them you have deduced I hate gays without having met me and after their 20+ years of association with me they are too stupid to realize.

Actually the most idiotic statement I ever read is the one in your post. How you are so offended although you are not gay. Because for you to be so offended by something that does not affect you directly but still feel the need to point out you are not gay really says something about you. Do you feel homosexuals are so unable to defend themselves that they need you to rush to their defense? IF you think they cannot defend themselves in a debate of ideas I have to think you really dont beleive they can defend themselves in battle.

I actually dont beleive that is the case however. I think you are just another liberal who thinks they know everything. If you disagree with Obama you are a racist. If you dont want to pay higher taxes for entitlement programs you hate the elderly or the poor or the children etc. Liberals always have these urges to put in place feel good programs that cost a fortune never solve the problem then want to throw away more money and god forbid if someone questions why you resort to calling names. I guess the elite liberals resort to calling names because us stoopid conservatives wouldnt understand your facts if you ever bothered to state them. (BTW I spelled Stupid incorrectly on purpose as sarcasm. I felt I should state that as liberals never seem to have a sense of humor or understand sarcasm)

Thanks for the Speech 101 lesson Professor. I think in English 102 they teach you how to write without coming off as a major blockhead...

Again show me ONE quote from wikileaks or Assange saying he is going to retaliate. The guy voluntarily went into custody on the Swedish warrant and no one has released the password for the insurance file. Lots of political commentators want people to see the situation the way you describe it, but when you go looking for the evidence to support that viewpoint it is not there.



First it was "grave and irreparable danger" and now nothing at all.

Did you ever win any

Seeing all of the stuff that's going on and how others are freaking out about it sometimes makes me chuckle. It's like our government has gone Jerry Springer...