Dual Exhaust troubles

Magnaflow Dual Exhaust

This mod has not turned out as well as I had hoped it would. I just not happy with this shops work. The guy who did the work was a hack.

I went to a highly recommended local high performance muffler shop, they been around for 10 plus years.

I knew things were strange when he said he need my help since he was by himself.
I had to hold pipes as he tack welded them in place. I didn't mind, I'd rather do this than sit in the lobby.

I think things went bad when the right side coming too close to the tire, about 1 in. I made a stink about this. He then had to re-bend, hack and whack to get pipe away from the tire.

He started on this job at 1:30 PM and finally finished at 11:15 PM (9 hours, 45 minutes) later.
He had lots of interruptions.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...G_1139v2sm.jpg
Very bad splice on the right side. The pipes were not fitted properly and welded crooked.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...G_1097v2sm.jpg
The shop put pipe clamps over the welds on the two connections exiting the muffler, I believe this was a way to cover some of his mess.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...G_1137v2sm.jpg
Bad bending especially at the connection from the muffler to the right tail pipe. The pipe goes into muffler at a 20? angle

The Tips are not straight

All the arc welds are lumpy and rusting

The hanger on right side was made from tacking a bolt to the frame

The pipe size used is 2.25 in. The shop flared the pipe to fit the muffler

Magnaflow (14218) Polished Stainless Steel muffler 2.5 in. single in, 2.5 in. dual out
I wonder if muffler should have been 2.25 in. not 2.5 in.

The muffler was WAY too loud, but after a week it has been getting better.
(Cyronman) took a ride in it this weekend and thought it was too loud also.

The performance seems kind of flat, just loud when you step on it.

If I go back to this guy I believe he will make things worse and cost me bundle over what it already has.

Should I will go to another muffler shop to have them check this out?

Sorry to hear about your experience especially how particular/meticulous you are. :( It does not look like a Class A job as you have pointed out an maybe worse if he tries to fix it. Best of luck on the future result and let us know what happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lasturbo

Sorry to hear about your experience especially how particular/meticulous you are. :( It does not look like a Class A job as you have pointed out an maybe worse if he tries to fix it. Best of luck on the future result and let us know what happens.

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I agree ^

Some of the welds dont look the best. Lumpy and smoove wise.
But then again looking at them in person instead of a close up picture you can see the difference.

Tho the twin pipe on yours rick does look very good! :yesy:

On the loudness When i had my old celicas muffer replaced with a straight through one it took about a week or 2 before it quietened down but when i want to get a wof (Warrant of fitness) it was too loud. Maybe a resonator a two in your new system might make it a bit quieter.

I remember one of Etlsports video when he got his exhaust done i think he said his got quieter after a few weeks. ( tho i maybe wrong )

Personaly if your not happy with the welding and quality of the job id take your vx somewhere else.

I remember paying double to fit a muffler on my old car at one shop than to get the cat removed on my vx at another shop.

But yea good luck.

Calling the guy who did the work on your exhaust a "hack" may be a bit over complimentary...:sighwgray

I would call the manager of the shop tomorrow morning & explain the whole nine+ hour ordeal, then ask when it would be convenient for him to have a look at it for himself.

Let him know, in no uncertain terms, that you do not want the same tech who did this to have any part in the fix.
That is, IF you decide to give them a chance to make it right.

Holy Cow, that looks absolutely terrible. I would contact the muffler shop business owner and see if he would fix it for free due to the shoddiness of work and wait for his response. If the owner says he's not going to do anything about it, then "tactifully" suggest that you may go to the State Attorney General Office for further assistance.

Another avenue of a possible solution may be the public news media like a local TV Channel News Station. Sometimes they have a "Consumer Fraud or Consumer Complaint" division that will actually send a TV News Camera Crew out to the bad business and do a featured news story on the issue. In the past, these are extremely effective. No business owner wants to be shown on film and interviews in a negative manner plastered on the evening TV news. So, this may be another tool of leverage in addition to the State Attorney General Office and even more effective as State Government move really slow, and TV News teams move really fast with fast results as they don't want the story to get old and stale.

Thus, my attack plan would be in this order:

(1): Talk to the muffler shop owner nicely and kindly ask him to "re-do" the total installation free of charge. If he agrees, then take no further action. If he doesn't agree, then "suggest" that you may be forced to take further action to include the State Attorney General Office and more importantly, his shop will be featured in a TV News Story about the shoddy work. If the muffler shop owner still refuses to comply, then you MUST take further action in steps 2 & 3 below (give the business owner "one last chance" to redeem himself before you actually drive away).

(2): Contact State Attorney General Office. Expect very slow results.

(3): Contact the biggest and most powerful TV News Station in your area and pursue a featured news story regarding the issue. Expect swift and immediate results, because the TV news media has a 100% success rate when exposing rip-off businesses in the local community.

In any event, I would not just lay down and eat-it. I would take action in a precise step-by-step manner. Be very nice and tactful in your communication with the muffler shop owner. Yelling and screaming solves nothing. When one step fails, you must take it to the next step until the issue is finally resolved. The TV News Story should be the absolute last resort; but if the business owner forces your hand, then it will get the job re-done for free. Plus, you'll get your pretty Dragon featured on the evening TV news!!! Let us know how things work out.

Lastly, you must have not read the latest "muffler threads". The overall viewpoint of this forum have determined that the Magnaflow Brand IS NOT the best muffler for the VX. The very best muffler by far for the VX is the now famous "Dynomax - Super Turbo" muffler. Do a forum "search" for DYNOMAX SUPER TURBO and specifically look for a thread entitled "Muffler Help Needed", then prepare yourself to be impressed.

^-1. My thoughts:

(1) Unless you've done a really good business with these guys in the past, I think it's highly unlikely that they're going to be willing to start over from scratch. Shops have fixed time estimates for every service job they perform, and most will bill you for that number of hours no matter how long it really takes (this plus parts mark-ups are where shops make a profit). If they took 9.75 hours to perform the initial install they have, at a minimum, already lost all profit on the job; but more than likely they're actually in the hole several hundred dollars at this point. I have a hard time believing that the shop will choose to lose hundreds more to deinstall/reinstall, especially if (as mentioned above) you don't do a large amount of business with them. I agree with RiffRaff that you should definitely ask, but I would expect them to argue that the exhaust system is functional and that redoing it just to make it pretty is unreasonable.

(2) There are thousands of shops in any given state, and many do mediocre to shoddy work and get away with it every day. Highly unlikely that the law will intervene unless there's credible evidence that this is a massive scam that's ripping off lots of people, since it costs the attorney's office a ton of money to investigate and prosecute this kind of crime. Plus it's not like you needed a new alternator or some other critical repair and they sent you away with a dangerous misinstallation; you chose to do a performance/appearance mod that most citizens could never afford, and your complaint basically circles around the notion that it wasn't pretty enough. Unfortunately, from the AG's perspective, I don't think there's a compelling argument to even look into it, much less ever see results (slow or otherwise).

(3) Same reasons as (2), but for ratings rather than $$$. If the story isn't big enough to engage a wide audience, they're just not going to be interested.

I feel for you and do think you're getting ripped off, but I think the reality is that you're going to have to pay for it one way or the other. Personally I'd rather incur additional cost to have it done right by another shop than to take it back and hope they don't screw something else up in the process of fixing it. It's a crappy situation, but unfortunately I think you're stuck.

Sorry dude. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickshaw

I went to a highly recommended local high performance muffler shop, they been around for 10 plus years.

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If this is the generally accepted reputation in the area of the business, it would be worth at least speaking with the owner about the work that was performed on your VX. You might try stopping back by to speak with the owner and set up a day/time to bring the VX back in when the person who did the original work isn't scheduled to be there.

At that time, have the owner himself take a look at the work and let him decide if that's the kind of work he wants representing his business, especially on something of a high-profile vehicle. A few simple remarks along the lines of having made the decision to bring your vehicle to his shop because of the high recommendations you'd received when asking around might be enough to let him know you're active in the local car scene too. (While I hesitate to use the word blackmail for this gambit, I'd say he would get the idea that you may be in a position to easily spread the word about his current work :_shrug: ).

If he's achieved a reputation for doing good work, I doubt he'd want his name associated with the work you received, and may agree to redo it to your (and his) satisfaction as a means of maintaining more future business.

If he doesn't, then it's simply a chance he'll be taking about the kind of reputation his business will maintain in the future. "Resting on past laurels" comes to mind.

Crapppy work like that doesnt belong on your ride Gene...its not like you took them some Frankentein off road beater.

If you get no satisfaction from these guys after talking to them...I can suggest a custom exhaust/muffler shop here in San Diego just off the I-5 in Pacific Beach.

They have done two custom builds for me ..both dual systems..one on my Old Bronco and one on the ORW ,

....and IMO they are very good at what they do.

As for the "noise"...give it a few weeks to settle...
I wasnt too pleased with the ORW sound at first...but its mellowed now to a nice growl.


jo

When I had poor work done on an engine rebuild I was going to take the guy to court but figured the judge would just rule he had to fix it. If this guy did this from scratch just imagine how bad it could be having him trying to fix it up. Only way I'd take it back is if another mechanic did the work.

It is hit and miss with the shop depending on who is doing the actual work. I feel for ya. That is some shoddy welds.

Your runs look similar to mine, how did he get so close to the tire?? My rear pipes were a single piece, and the front to the cats were two sections. I had 2.25" flared to fit into the muffler and 2.5" on the outs. See pics.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...agnaflow_1.jpg

The loudness did not go away for me. I went back a month later and had glass packs put on. Made a world of difference.
(mind the offroad damage :o)
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...rivers_rez.jpg


Still too loud when I tromp on it. I'm now going to try a 20" Dynomax or Magnaflow - whichever one has more packing.
Will still keep the resonators (maybe replace if worn through).

Good Luck!
I do agree, if you have the personality for it, challenge the shop to redo it in a professional manner on their dime. They should be embarressed.

Research! Look up to see if they're a member of the Better Business Bureau. Even if they're NOT a member (which kind of says a lot right there), the BBB still often has some interesting info on complaints received. I've had occasions where I looked up a business on the BBB to see what I could find out. I did this with the auto shipping companies I was considering. That's one reason I found D.A.S. to be the best choice.

Anyway, if you find they have a bunch of complaints filed, you'll get to see how they were resolved (if they were a BBB member)....it will show if the shop failed to respond at all, or resolved it to the customer's satisfaction, and that sort of thing.

If they have a ton of complaints on file, or a history of not responding, you can pretty much predict what kind of response you're going to get.

You can also cite the BBB in conversation with the owner....yeah it's kind of
blackmail like TREKker mentioned, but it's really the only leverage you may have.

I've got the time if you want me to look up some BBB info I'd be happy to, just PM me name of shop and city.

KENNY--- Your exhaust installation is amazing, and the welds are as smooth as glass from a well experienced welder.

If you decide to upgrade to the Dynomax - Super Turbo, then consider a "Single Inlet" with a "Dual Outlet" configuration. This will eliminate the need for the Inlet Y-pipe as in your current configuration. Take a peek at the thread entitled "Muffler Help Needed" regarding the Dynomax - Super Turbo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoFotoz

Crapppy work like that doesnt belong on your ride Gene...its not like you took them some Frankentein off road beater.

If you get no satisfaction from these guys after talking to them...I can suggest a custom exhaust/muffler shop here in San Diego just off the I-5 in Pacific Beach.

They have done two custom builds for me ..both dual systems..one on my Old Bronco and one on the ORW ,

....and IMO they are very good at what they do.

As for the "noise"...give it a few weeks to settle...
I wasnt too pleased with the ORW sound at first...but its mellowed now to a nice growl.


jo

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Is that Dualtone Jo???

Yup Larry....thats the one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lasturbo

Is that Dualtone Jo???

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Richard & Rick are the guys to talk to there...
....they are experts in custom exhaust systems.

They do VERY good work IMO.....:thumbup:

jo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickshaw

Magnaflow Dual Exhaust

This mod has not turned out as well as I had hoped it would. I just not happy with this shops work. The guy who did the work was a hack.

I went to a highly recommended local high performance muffler shop, they been around for 10 plus years.

I knew things were strange when he said he need my help since he was by himself.
I had to hold pipes as he tack welded them in place. I didn't mind, I'd rather do this than sit in the lobby.

I think things went bad when the right side coming too close to the tire, about 1 in. I made a stink about this. He then had to re-bend, hack and whack to get pipe away from the tire.

He started on this job at 1:30 PM and finally finished at 11:15 PM (9 hours, 45 minutes) later.
He had lots of interruptions.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...G_1139v2sm.jpg
Very bad splice on the right side. The pipes were not fitted properly and welded crooked.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...G_1097v2sm.jpg
The shop put pipe clamps over the welds on the two connections exiting the muffler, I believe this was a way to cover some of his mess.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...G_1137v2sm.jpg
Bad bending especially at the connection from the muffler to the right tail pipe. The pipe goes into muffler at a 20? angle

The Tips are not straight

All the arc welds are lumpy and rusting

The hanger on right side was made from tacking a bolt to the frame

The pipe size used is 2.25 in. The shop flared the pipe to fit the muffler

Magnaflow (14218) Polished Stainless Steel muffler 2.5 in. single in, 2.5 in. dual out
I wonder if muffler should have been 2.25 in. not 2.5 in.

The muffler was WAY too loud, but after a week it has been getting better.
(Cyronman) took a ride in it this weekend and thought it was too loud also.

The performance seems kind of flat, just loud when you step on it.

If I go back to this guy I believe he will make things worse and cost me bundle over what it already has.

Should I will go to another muffler shop to have them check this out?

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No comment:freek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VX KAT

Research! Look up to see if they're a member of the Better Business Bureau. Even if they're NOT a member (which kind of says a lot right there), the BBB still often has some interesting info on complaints received. I've had occasions where I looked up a business on the BBB to see what I could find out. I did this with the auto shipping companies I was considering. That's one reason I found D.A.S. to be the best choice.

Anyway, if you find they have a bunch of complaints filed, you'll get to see how they were resolved (if they were a BBB member)....it will show if the shop failed to respond at all, or resolved it to the customer's satisfaction, and that sort of thing.

If they have a ton of complaints on file, or a history of not responding, you can pretty much predict what kind of response you're going to get.

You can also cite the BBB in conversation with the owner....yeah it's kind of
blackmail like TREKker mentioned, but it's really the only leverage you may have.

I've got the time if you want me to look up some BBB info I'd be happy to, just PM me name of shop and city.

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I hate to disagree Kat. But the BBB has been a joke everytime I have dealt with them. The only use is checking with them ahead of time. They have no power, their interest is in protecting dues paying members and to get a satisfactory rating for response all they need to do is write they got the complaint looked at it and determined they are not to blame and bingo shiny record.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by circmand

I hate to disagree Kat. But the BBB has been a joke everytime I have dealt with them. The only use is checking with them ahead of time. They have no power, their interest is in protecting dues paying members and to get a satisfactory rating for response all they need to do is write they got the complaint looked at it and determined they are not to blame and bingo shiny record.

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I think it just depends on how you look at that. True, the BBB can't actually make a business do anything that a complaint is being directed towards, but they have no choice but to record the complaint and keep it on file regardless of whether an agreement is eventually reached between the business and the complaining party.

That complaint and the eventual result is then kept on record, can be compared with any similar occurences in the future to determine if a pattern is being established, and any patterns that do occur can be used as evidence in further legal actions if necessary by customers with similar complaints. The fact that the initial complaint and the eventual results will be kept on file is sometimes enough of a factor in itself to influence what the business will be willing to do.

If nothing else, the BBB is an initial no-cost alternative to settling disputes with businesses who are members of the BBB (and those who aren't), and who would prefer to maintain their image as being reputable. The BBB route isn't perfect by any means, but there's also something to be said for trying to work things out through an intermediary since more often than not, people tend to automatically go on the defensive when dealing with each other in person.

But again, the BBB is just one option. Whether or not you think you may be able to work things out with the owner in person just depends on the owner and how you make your approach.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoFotoz

Yup Larry....thats the one.




Richard & Rick are the guys to talk to there...
....they are experts in custom exhaust systems.

They do VERY good work IMO.....:thumbup:

jo

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I have to agree with Jo. We used to send all of our Range Rover Classics and Discovery's there for Cat replacements and we never had a problem with them. They replaced one of my cats on my ol' 89 Range Rover Classic at least 5-6 years ago and still workin!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

I think it just depends on how you look at that. True, the BBB can't actually make a business do anything that a complaint is being directed towards, but they have no choice but to record the complaint and keep it on file regardless of whether an agreement is eventually reached between the business and the complaining party.

That complaint and the eventual result is then kept on record, can be compared with any similar occurences in the future to determine if a pattern is being established, and any patterns that do occur can be used as evidence in further legal actions if necessary by customers with similar complaints. The fact that the initial complaint and the eventual results will be kept on file is sometimes enough of a factor in itself to influence what the business will be willing to do.

If nothing else, the BBB is an initial no-cost alternative to settling disputes with businesses who are members of the BBB (and those who aren't), and who would prefer to maintain their image as being reputable. The BBB route isn't perfect by any means, but there's also something to be said for trying to work things out through an intermediary since more often than not, people tend to automatically go on the defensive when dealing with each other in person.

But again, the BBB is just one option. Whether or not you think you may be able to work things out with the owner in person just depends on the owner and how you make your approach.

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Yes TREKer, I agree with you 100% and you worded it much clearer than I. It's just another tool that might help lend some leverage to the buyer, and certainly can't hurt. Thanks.

One thing I'll add about the BBB-- if you are just trying to find out what information is available on a certain business, then you have to pay the BBB a service charge fee.

I called the BBB one day and asked if they had a file on "So-N-So" (for example). The BBB said, yes they did. I responded, what does the file say?; and they told me there is a service charge fee for specific detailed information regarding any business on file.

That's how the BBB makes their money-- they get a complaint from the accuser; then they "may/may not" get a reply from the business, but they will only give-out that information to a common outsider if they pay a service charge fee. The BBB service is not free; it collects data, then sells that data to whoever is interested. If the accused business never made a reply to the accusation, then that's the result/resolution that is sold. The BBB can be somewhat irrating sometimes and their service charge fee's are non-refundable. Hmmm, how do you file a BBB complaint against the BBB??? Ponder that!!!

The only thing that is truly "free" is if you call and ask the BBB if they have a file on "So-N-So" (for example), and they reply YES. Then just hang-up the phone, as you then know that the business had a complaint "filed" at some point in time. You don't really need to know the specific details or result/resolution of the matter. A perfect business is not going to have a BBB file of any kind on record, because no one ever made an accusation about the business to the BBB. Basically, no news is good news.

:ot:
I don't know about that Riff, I've obtained lots of free data on several companies over the years, all free online on the BBB website. The info includes the category of the complaint (i.e. a billing issue, not as represented, etc) and the company's response, (i.e. no response to BBB at all, or satisfactorily resolved issue to customer's satisfaction). Again these are categories of response. On some it even listed the general allegations against the company, as alleged by the customer. I've seen many on car repair places and they usually are claiming they were overcharged so it gets categorized as "billing issue".

It also lists the number of complaints received in a 3 year period, how many were resolved, how many were closed w/o any response, etc.. I think the number of complaints alone does give you some useful info. It also lists the owner/proprietor of the business which is a good way to find out the "top person" to speak to.

I do recall one auto transportation company I researched had like over 150 complaints in a 3 yr period and IIRC they hadn't even responded to a single one. MANY of these complaints said the transportation company wouldn't give them their car until additional fees/charges were paid....at that point they have your car as hostage. DAS had a great record, that's why I went with them.:hj: Sorry for the t-j guys....

Speaking of back on topic-- Where in the heck is "RICKSHAW"??? He started this thread and we haven't heard even a peep from him in an update!!! Hello RICKSHAW, are you out there somewhere good buddy???

Here I am,
There's just nothing new to report at this time.
Thanks for ideas of what to do.
I did run the muffler shop's name through BBB's web site and nothing came up.
______________

I forgot to mention a few things.

I believe the guy who did the installation was the owner.

Before the installation I printed out pictures of Kenny's and Cyrk's dual exhaust installs. I thought they would help the guy with pipe routing. He only looked at it once.

When the pipes were ready for the Tips to be installed. He said The Tips are not included and will be another $ 200 more. I kind of felt like I was set-up.
______________

I plan on going to another muffler shop first to have them look at the work before I go back to the original guy.

I still feel, if the original guy re-does the work, that he would splice and dice to fix it rather than re-bend a new pipe.

If I have a new shop redo the work, It will have to be later, just can't afford it right now.

As far as the sound goes. The muffler definitely has gotten much better, still very loud when you step on it but I can live with that.

Good luck with the whole mess rickshaw.

I find it hard to believe that it was the owner who butchered this job tho. The policy at every shop that I know of has a strict policy that customers are not allowed in the bay (even worse to ask for help) for liability reasons. Asking a customer to hold pipe that is being welded is asking for someone to get hurt.

I had an incident a couple of years ago with the SeaDoo. The shop was replacing the impeller and venturi. The didn't install a seal properly and a bearing burned up during the first use. The lead mech told me that it was properly installed (despite the repair receipt from the guy who actually fixed it) and that my ski was just old (10 years) and that I shouldn't bring it back any more for them to work on. The owner was NOT pleased & reimbursed me for the initial repairs.

When you go back, clearly indicate that it is NOT merely cosmetic. Bends, welds and angles on an exhaust are common failure points. You should be anticipating premature failure due to the shoddy workmanship.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riff Raff

Holy Cow, that looks absolutely terrible. I would contact the muffler shop business owner and see if he would fix it for free due to the shoddiness of work and wait for his response. If the owner says he's not going to do anything about it, then "tactifully" suggest that you may go to the State Attorney General Office for further assistance.

Another avenue of a possible solution may be the public news media like a local TV Channel News Station. Sometimes they have a "Consumer Fraud or Consumer Complaint" division that will actually send a TV News Camera Crew out to the bad business and do a featured news story on the issue. In the past, these are extremely effective. No business owner wants to be shown on film and interviews in a negative manner plastered on the evening TV news. So, this may be another tool of leverage in addition to the State Attorney General Office and even more effective as State Government move really slow, and TV News teams move really fast with fast results as they don't want the story to get old and stale.

Thus, my attack plan would be in this order:

(1): Talk to the muffler shop owner nicely and kindly ask him to "re-do" the total installation free of charge. If he agrees, then take no further action. If he doesn't agree, then "suggest" that you may be forced to take further action to include the State Attorney General Office and more importantly, his shop will be featured in a TV News Story about the shoddy work. If the muffler shop owner still refuses to comply, then you MUST take further action in steps 2 & 3 below (give the business owner "one last chance" to redeem himself before you actually drive away).

(2): Contact State Attorney General Office. Expect very slow results.

(3): Contact the biggest and most powerful TV News Station in your area and pursue a featured news story regarding the issue. Expect swift and immediate results, because the TV news media has a 100% success rate when exposing rip-off businesses in the local community.

In any event, I would not just lay down and eat-it. I would take action in a precise step-by-step manner. Be very nice and tactful in your communication with the muffler shop owner. Yelling and screaming solves nothing. When one step fails, you must take it to the next step until the issue is finally resolved. The TV News Story should be the absolute last resort; but if the business owner forces your hand, then it will get the job re-done for free. Plus, you'll get your pretty Dragon featured on the evening TV news!!! Let us know how things work out.

Lastly, you must have not read the latest "muffler threads". The overall viewpoint of this forum have determined that the Magnaflow Brand IS NOT the best muffler for the VX. The very best muffler by far for the VX is the now famous "Dynomax - Super Turbo" muffler. Do a forum "search" for DYNOMAX SUPER TURBO and specifically look for a thread entitled "Muffler Help Needed", then prepare yourself to be impressed.

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Hmmm, now where did I put my big yellow phone book with the list of local "TV News Stations"??? Ah; yes, here it is-- K-RAT/TV.

Rickshaw...IF the guy decides to repair his mess make sure to be specific as to what you expect and get it in writing. Then tell him if he can not meet YOUR expectations that you will gladly accept a FULL reimbursment so that you can take it to someone that is actually qualified to do the quality work that you expect.
You should not have to pay anything extra for him to fix his mess!