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4000
SWEET!!! :jump:
Amazing!! :dance:
WHAT??? :_confused
4000 is the american death toll in iraq :cryb:Quote:
Originally Posted by crager34
DOH!! (me)
:_iamwiths
sorry
:sighp::nop:
CNN reported yesterday that approximately 80,000 to 100,00 Iraqi civilians have been killed as well.
WWJD?
First one to answer this question wins 1 point of respect from me....
After 5 years, how many WMDs have been found to date in Iraq? :rolleyes:
It's over 7,000 dead if you choose to remember the 3,000 civilians killed by the MoFo cowards at the WTC.
:_brickwal
As compared to the six figure death toll from genocide prior to us going in...
4000 deaths is a horror. But there are economic costs that are crippling our nation.
When Clinton left office, the US had a half a trillion dollars in the bank. That surplus is gone now. The war has cost anywhere from 3 to 7 trillion dollars (with no end in sight if McCain wins).
How can one put those numbers into perspective?
Suppose someone were to give you a dollar every second. Would you want them to stop at a million, a billion or a trillion?
A million seconds will pass in 12 days.
A billion seconds will pass in 32 years.
A trillion seconds will pass in 32,000 years.
So what we have spent so far would take at least 100,000 years just to count.
I read where the cost of the Iraqi war is $40,000 for each American family. I'd rather that money go to the victims of Katrina.
Wrong warQuote:
Originally Posted by BuxGuy
To those that 100% oppose that war.....do not read, do not listen and do not care to know the facts.....
Advice: grow some common sense..... And then and maybe just then we can have a political debate on an Isuzu VehiCROSS forum....
Right war, right time, right cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Oh, and look, not another single attack on American soil in 5 years.
"To those that 100% oppose that war.....do not read, do not listen and do not care to know the facts....."
Agreed.
Our justification for going in may have been based on intelligence that was eventually proven wrong (WMDs). Saddam took perverse pride in admitting that he duped the US into believing that he had massive quantities of them. He just used them up before we got there.
We may not have efficiently trained the Iraq military to take over soon enough.
We should be using Iraq profits from their oil to pay for the rebuilding (of course that in itself would be a dam if you do ... dam if you don't proposition).
The place is a terrorism hot bed and the guy was a monster so I think the war was justified. We should have gone in sooner to stop most of the genocide.
I saw that in the paper this morning.
How many permanently injured?
When is this war going to stop?
And don't forget about the countless animals, and all the environmental destruction and pollution the war has caused. They barely ever talk about these things...
Bart
We've got enough problems at home to worry about fixing those outside our borders. The US should adopt an isolationist policy more extreme than that which we enjoyed prior to WWII and focus our energies internally, utilizing the military to secure our borders and coastlines. Once our economy and military stays here you'll see a radical shift in anti-US sentiment.
Will it happen? Will ANY change happen? Maybe after the next Revolution. :rolleyes:
Here's a way to stop the Iraq war. Have a draft. If everyone has a chance, other than volunteering, to go to this great war, it will end pretty quickly.
If you support the war, that's your right. If you volunteered, I respect that a lot. That means you talk the talk and walk the walk. I just ask that you don't talk all this smack and have someone else have all the fun. Go volunteer.....don't be like my cousin who was 22 when Iraq started. He talked all kinds of smack, but when asked why not go and do his part he would sheepishly say he was doing his part with his part time job. Or don't be like a buddy of mine who talked a lot of smack when his son was 12. Now that he's 17, I asked him if he was talking to his son about going to Iraq. He also said sheepishly my son makes his own decision. I reminded him that as a parent he should guide his son to make that decision. He looked away and said he had not and will not do that.
Peace.
Tom
012009
Interesting responses..
I personally hold anyone who voted for GWB personally responsible for not only 4000 of our countrymen and women dead,but for all the maimed and wounded G.I s who now have plastic where limbs used to be, for the countless innocent Iraqis who have been killed in the mayhem. The blood is on your hands....
Beyond the physical and mental toll...Let's look at the economic toll. Our beloved country is in a recession...I see it everyday, established businesses going under and closing their doors for good.
I see big banks and investment houses getting bailed out, but no help for the little guy, small business owners.
Gwb came into office with an economic surplus and will be leaving office with a deep deficit. I thought Republicans were money saavy?
Gas prices are skyhigh and oil companies are raking in huge profits.
The middle class is being squeezed harder than any time in history.
I was reading there is an influx of 40-50 somethings having to move back in with their parents!
This is the result of people voting in an idiot into office. I don't see why the whole country is not mad as hell. Why is there not legions of people throwing molotov cocktails at the White House every day screaming for his ouster!
I still love this country,with all my heart,but the American dream is fading, and like most dreams, you have to be asleep to believe in it.
lol..If you dont like it move to canada...GOD BLESS AMERICA..
oops ..lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Black
Joe,
IMO you hit it right on the head.
As a veteran of OIF 2 & 3, I'm tired of people (other vets) standing ground for "all the good we've accomplished for Iraqi civilians" i.e. building schools/organizing soccer leagues for their children/repairing power plants, roads, hospitals, irrigation equipment, etc...
I'm not saying that's not awfully thoughtful of us, but it's all just a show--
why can't we do that here on our own turf?
Cy
You are right...God Bless Amarica!Quote:
Originally Posted by don moore
Where is Ama rica?
is it by Costa Rica?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Black
Absolutely... take care of yourself first. Can't be of any use to others if you yourself are messed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyronman
Or Mexico... Ireland... Poland... wherever. If you choose to keep your loyalties elsewhere, move back. This is not The Divided States of America!Quote:
Originally Posted by don moore
America & Americans first... then (if we can, after there are no more troubles here) help others.
"I personally hold anyone who voted for GWB personally responsible for not only 4000 of our countrymen and women dead,but for all the maimed and wounded G.I s who now have plastic where limbs used to be, for the countless innocent Iraqis who have been killed in the mayhem. The blood is on your hands...."
That would be me. I'm not going to hang my head in shame for making an educated decision at that time.
I rekin the only thing worse than me is someone who incessantly WHINES about the issues and does NOTHING about it but whine some more.
Just what would you have had the President do differently? Close our borders and pretend that 3000 Americans had not been brutally murdered. Maybe Sadam wasn't behind it directly but Iraq was a terrorist hotbed and terrorism is an cancer that just continues spreading if unchecked. Maybe the war could have been run differently but ... were you there? ... when did God tap you on the shoulder and give you the gift of absolute knowlege? Oh, I know. The media said it so it must be true.
Don't get me wrong, I mourn for the dead and wounded (my nephew was wounded 3 times in 1 tour) but I will not denigrate the sacrifice that they willingly made. They did what they believed was right as did the President. The cost of the war both in terms of lives lost and money spent is incredibly high but what would the cost have been if it had been fought on our soil. Make no mistake - that is the direction that terrorism was headed.
As an American you are entitled to voice your own opinion as you have done. The problem is that there are just too many Americans who sit in front of their TVs and become intoxicated by the media's bashing of the war and the President and develop a terminal case of constipation of the brain and diahrea of the mouth. You've stated your opinion and feebly attempted to justify it with facts but remember that the facts can (and have been) corrupted to make the story what they want you to hear. Cmon, if the media told nothing but happy face stories who would watch it?
All I'm saying is that it's time for you to stop whining and start acting. What are you going to do Junkie? All of those soldiers who valliantly gave their lives acted. Now it's your turn.
Tom4bren said......"Maybe Sadam wasn't behind it directly but Iraq was a terrorist hotbed and terrorism is an cancer that just continues spreading if unchecked."
Your arguement is weak at best........we had Sadaam bottled up for 15 years.....he could not do anything in his own country without our knowledge. We had that country so secure after the first Gulf War it's silly now to argue that he had WMD. He could not even fly in his own country because the U.S. put a NO FLY ZONE for the past 15 years. We knew excacly what he had and what he didn't have.
There are good cops and bad cops. If you smart off to a cop, and he's a bad cop, he CAN and WILL find a reason to haul you in. That doesn't mean the cop is right. The United States was the bad cop in this case. Explain to me why we only put 20,000 soldiers in the country that was resonsible for 911 and 160,000 in a country that had nothing to do with 911. W estill haven't got Bin Laiden and we still only have 20,000 soldiers over there. Makes it seem like Bin Laiden wasn't the real target.
You have to admit every arguement this administration has given us of why we are there has not been true.
Peace.
Tom
012009
What was your educated decision, to vote for GWB? For that you should hang your head in shame. GWB has been more detrimental to the United States than Saddam had been to Iraq.He has been more detrimental to Iraq than Saddam too. Don't spout off about the Kurd mustard gas massacre because that happened before W's fathers term and nothing was done about it then. Papa Bush was in striking distance of Saddam in the first gulf war but was wise enough to leave than hornet's nest alone.He knew what his dumb son diden't: that those people are crazy! They strap bombs to women and kids in the name of religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by tom4bren
All this attention on Iraq was due t the fact that Saddam threatened to kill GWB's father. So he had a hard on for Iraq even before he was elected.
I supported us going into Afghanastan and rooting the Talaban because they were supporting Osama and had a supporting role in 911. There is no direct link to Osama and Iraq...It's just Afghanastan dose not have the worlds richest oil reserve under it's heroin poppys.
I am sorry, this country has suffered internally and in the eyes of the world under the current administration.I find it hard to put my trust in an administration that has been wrong or lied about almost everything regarding the war up to this point.I don't think the media is duping me, I think your party affiliation is duping you.
"we had Sadaam bottled up for 15 years.....he could not do anything in his own country without our knowledge."
Then why didn't we know where every mass grave and every weapon cache was located?
"You have to admit every arguement this administration has given us of why we are there has not been true."
To the best of my knowlege there was only the one reason ... WMD. Why would you assume that we were duped? We were mistaken, there's no doubt about it. Saddam took perverse pride in admitting that he intentionally misled the coalition forces about the existence of WMDs. I was fully convinced they were there too. I was wrong and I honestly believe that our Government was too.
"W estill haven't got Bin Laiden"
Ever stop to think that it's infinitely more effective to keep him contained than it is to create a martyr (sp?).
"GWB has been more detrimental to the United States than Saddam had been to Iraq.He has been more detrimental to Iraq than Saddam too."
Please provide the basis for this comment - it makes no sense to me. Or you using an exageration to add credence to your other false assumptions?
"There is no direct link to Osama and Iraq..."
I never said there was. I said that Iraq was a terrorist hotbed & you agreed ("They strap bombs to women and kids in the name of religion."). Thanks for supporting my point.
"Don't spout off about the Kurd mustard gas massacre because that happened before W's fathers term and nothing was done about it then."
But it was done and it was done by Saddam. You're just supporting the fact that we should have gone in ... we should have gone in sooner.
"I think your party affiliation is duping you."
Possibly. Unfortunately you have failed to convince me of that. I believe that 'my party' was mistaken as was I & so was Colin Powell. It wasn't a lie or a fabricated excuse. We were intentionally misled by Saddam.
"It's just Afghanastan dose not have the worlds richest oil reserve under it's heroin poppys."
That's paid out for us quite well now hasn't it.
Why don't you open your eyes? We were not mislead by Saadam. We were misled by this administration, and we are still being mislead. You have been lied to, yet you make an excuse why it is not a lie. If Bush was a CEO of a company, he would already have his walking papers. The problem is Bush is SO MUCH MORE than a CEO, and created so many more problems than a CEO could ever do.
Peace.
Tom
012009
"Why don't you open your eyes?"
Maybe I choose not to. I lead a much happier life if I don't continually assume that the world is out to get me. So far my approach has worked out quite well for me. In my life I have taken many chances where I rely on the honesty of others and it is on rare occasion that I am disappointed. So I give the American political machine the same favor. If Obama or Clinton gets in office I'm prepared to have them make my life a living hell at work since I work for the Army but in general, I will put my trust in them just as I did for Bush.
Lets just agree to disagree since I won't convince you & you won't convince me on this particular topic. 'Sides, Y'all are giving me a headache making me think too much:)
Ignorance is Bliss. That's the simpletons way.
Peace.
Tom
012009
Put a smiley after you say that Bub.:)
See, I trust that was your intent ... you weren't looking to piss me off.:)
Gotta run & burn up a little of all that Iraqui oil we won in the war.:)
G'nite
Weird how quickly these threads can divide us.
I bought my VX purely for pleasure. I come to this board for the camaraderie and friendship...for the VX discussions...for the jokes and laughter. :)
Yes, it can be a serious world out there. Yes, these are important issues. But is this really the best forum for discussion out there? Aren't there plenty of other websites and blogs made specifically for that purpose?
I dunno...it's just my opinion, which is as worthless as anyone else's. On one hand, I claim that this VX website isn't the best place for heated political debate, but on the other hand here I am making a post in this thread.
The thing is, I already know that nobody cares about my opinion on the war. Nobody cares about ANY VX owner's opinion on the war. It's far too complex to even bother discussing in a few paragraphs. I mean, honestly, how many opinions are there?
1) Are you FOR the war? Is anyone truly "for" war? Is there such a thing as a "good" war, and if so, is this Iraq thingie a really "good" war? It's a friggen' mess, is what it is. And none of us...not you, or you, or you, or me...NONE of us has the teeniest idea of the true complexity of that situation. Genocide? Probably. WMD's? Maybe. Just because Saddam didn't wheel them out to show us doesn't mean they weren't there. Oil money? Maybe. Favorable contracts to Bush's pals? Perhaps. Space aliens? Hmmm...No more wacky than Muslims and Christians killing each other in any God's name. :eek:
2) Are you AGAINST the war? Hey, good for you for taking the high moral ground. You're such a brave soul for coming out against killing. So risky! So 'out there'! Wooooo hoooo. Are you also in favor of puppies and candy and love? Are you pro-good and anti-bad? Wow. NPR thanks you for your support. Keep on livin' on the edge, you radical. :p
I'm not trying to make light of the war. I'm just saying that this is a VX forum, and I really doubt that ANY of us in here, who CHOOSE TO DRIVE THESE OBSCENE GAS GUZZLERS, can truly claim to be experts on why this war was or was not necessary.
Having said all of that, I want to thank each and every one of you who have contributed to the knowledge base of these wonderfully fun vehicles. And props to those of you who are anti-war and anti-killing AND have found a practical way to get your VX running on tap water instead of $3.50/gallon unleaded regular fuel. Please post those instructions ASAP for the rest of us!
(Note: this post was made with tongue planted sort of firmly in cheek. Hence the "Smilies" sprinkled throughout.) :bwgr:
Great post Pho2gr4! I admin two separate forums much like this for collectors and enthusiasts of vintage Caterpillar equipment, and the political discussions there are most notable for not being particularly divisive. Most of the folk into that particular hobby are generally cut from the same cloth, which is very interesting considering the international nature of our 4000+ membership.
Here, very different. The VehiCROSS really spans a very broad spectrum across the demographic, which is why I typically stay out of the religion/politics discussions. I know I stepped in here, but my views are usually radical enough to keep most at bay. ;) But as mentioned this isn't the best board to to engage in such ponderings without a thick hide and an open mind. :bgwg:
I'm more thick-minded...Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Black
:)
Thanks for your post! I love everyone in here, regardless of political persuasion.
Except for the damn Belgians!!!! :mad:
Wow we have a fool amongst us (or two). Speaking of the media brainwashed folks that take what the tv says versus researching for themselves. Threads like this should be banned.
4Bren - If I had enough energy (car wreck view "so I" thread) or time (I consider it a waste arguing politics on a car forum or even dealing with junkies at all) I would be helping you. Its an easy war for us to fight just sometimes not even oxy clean can help ansoiled brain.
Thank you.
4000 hmm... 40,000+ wounded and maimed. why don't you do something to help and support these people that have sacificed so much for our country and other countries around the world. I want to thank all our veterans who are serving and who have served.
This war is not a GWB invention, it was US foriegn policy dating back to the Clinton Admin. so it doesn't matter who is president. When bad things happen they have to do what they believe is in the best interest of the country. Do you think things would be much different if Al Gore was president during 9/11 or JoHn Kerry won the last election? And do you think that will be different if Clinton or Obama or McCain is elected? They have to protect our best countries interests. I don't remeber Clinton doing a go job protecting American interests here on our soil or around the world. It easy to have a lot of friends when you don't enforce the rule of law. There is plenty of blame to go around and nothing get done doing it. So solve the problems.
Lets face it oil makes the world go round. We get 20% of our oil from the middle east the rest comes from north and south america. We Americans need to change our energy policy to benefit our country's economic issues. Start investing in our infrastructure, new oil refinaries, new powerplants, and start using all our natural resources. We need oil exploration on our soil and stop tying our wallets to foreign oil producing countries that are spreading anti-american B.S around the world. Also work on developing green energy technologies too that can be shared with the whole world so they can become energy independent as well. this will eliminate OPEC's hold on the world and help stop the spread of some of their old world ideologies.
Peace my Vx brothers and sisters.
P.S. HOT_WASABI_JUNKIE Cindy Sheehan called, she would like her CODE PINK panties back if your done wearing them. :eek:
I can't agree more with the last 5 posts. I guess I'm really more 'middle of the road' than I appeared in my blathering earlier - Sorrry.
I would like to apologise to HWJ. I broke my own cardinal rule about discussing politics - discuss, don't argue. I didn't go back and reread my earlier posts but I probably took some personal shots against you. That's wrong & I'm sorry. I may not agree with your political viewpoints but I have nothing against you personally - I even like your choice in vehicles:)
Suddenly my signature isn't funny anymore - time for a change.
It's about time! Animal abuse is not funny. That has been bugging me since I first saw it.
Well said, Eric. I agree completely. I have avoided an opinionated response to this thread for those very reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by PHO2GR4
You should come to Moab again this year and hang out!
;) Bart
Ok, here's one for ya....
This guy is walking down the street. Not Main Street, where all the business is handled for specific, everyday needs, but Misc Street, where you see all sorts of other places of interests and non essential establishments. He sees a neon sign that says "Nudie Bar: 4000 Naked Women Inside".
So, he walks in. He takes a very quick look around and sees the "stage show" and the patrons with their handfulls of dollar bills and alcoholic beverages.
The man screams out to the patrons "This is an outrage! There is a time and place for this, just not here, not now! I came here for a drink and to relax! How am I supposed to do that with all this sin and carnal activity going on!?"
The patrons turn to look at him. Then, their gaze turns to the sign and the street name, then back to him again. Shrugging, they turn back to the show to participate in what they came for.
I don't know that the moral of this story really has to be explained. Especially since I just like to run into nudie bars, throw a firecracker, and then run out. :p