**Patriotic Retirement**

[Osteomata]

And while Im all fired up, the 650K Iraqi casualty figure is indeed controversial. The Lancet study that sites that number did not restrict itself to known deaths caused by war related violence, but also included demographic based estimates that include mortality rates associated with war-related conditions such as drought, famine, disease, lack of access to health services etc. Hard core confirmable deaths related to violence might be less. But there are also studies that suggest the figure is over a million.

The Kurdish genecide in Iraq, while I may not think it comparable, is indeed horrible. If you are suggesting that such a genecide is/was a legitimate justification for OIF and the follow on occupation, I can accept that. Nothing you have said in this thread would lead me to believe that is your primary, or even important consideration, but if you say so, so be it. But using this logic I must assume that you also believed that we should have unilaterally invaded Rwanda to prevent that tragedy, and should be in the Sudan now. Or is the humanitarian justification nothing more than a convenient post-fact rationalization?

- Os

[circmand]

And while Im all fired up, the 650K Iraqi casualty figure is indeed controversial. The Lancet study that sites that number did not restrict itself to known deaths caused by war related violence, but also included demographic based estimates that include mortality rates associated with war-related conditions such as drought, famine, disease, lack of access to health services etc. Hard core confirmable deaths related to violence might be less. But there are also studies that suggest the figure is over a million. - Os

Are taking into account the bodies in mass graves killed by Saddam but found since the war started plus the many killed in suicide bombings. I do not like the war but the many people in Iraq who had relatives killed and tortured must appreciate our sacrifice. I would like any Dove to please explain why they always complain about the injustices of the world scream "think of the children" then all they want to do is talk about it to the butchers doing it sing Kum Bay Ah and then actually complain when someone does something that makes a difference.

[Osteomata]

Not sure who you are talking to with this comment. Is your Dove/"think of the children"/Kumbaya singers routine just a strawman by which you can dismiss those critics of the war? Cause I'm hardly a dove and avoid using "think of the children" phrases like the plague. My comment you quoted was a normative statement addressing where the 650K casualty figure came from. Casualties associated with Saddam's reign are a different study.

As I stated to Marlin, if you defend the war and occupation as a humanitarian mission, so be it. But I question the legitimacy of those who claim this as a primary or even significant consideration in their support for the invasion. It strikes me as nothing more than a post-fact rationalization. A rather straight forward test of this would be to ask if the person holding this "Iraq is justified on humanitarian grounds" belief was also in favor of unilateral Rwandan and Darfur intervention.

Are taking into account the bodies in mass graves killed by Saddam but found since the war started plus the many killed in suicide bombings. I do not like the war but the many people in Iraq who had relatives killed and tortured must appreciate our sacrifice. I would like any Dove to please explain why they always complain about the injustices of the world scream "think of the children" then all they want to do is talk about it to the butchers doing it sing Kum Bay Ah and then actually complain when someone does something that makes a difference.

[tomdietrying]

circmand, you are missing the main point, and the point you are missing is HUGE. We invaded a country. Any country not even the USA is allowed to invade a country without just cause. We, America, save countries who were invaded by other countries. At least that what we are supposed to do. Our government lied to the American people why we went there. Now they are trying to justicfy their lies with the good deeds of building up the country that we blew up. Does that not bother you in the least?

We, as a country, need our integrity back. It begins with individuals holding people accountable for the decisions that were made.
Peace.
Tom

[don moore]

So lets go invade Afghanistan next...

[circmand]

circmand, you are missing the main point, and the point you are missing is HUGE. We invaded a country. Any country not even the USA is allowed to invade a country without just cause. Tom

Sorry Tom but every country in the world that exists or ever did exisst is a result of one country invading another. Unless you propose moving out and handing the country back to the native americans we are an occupying force. Rome invaded most of Europe as did Napolean later, Genghis Khan did the same with most of Asia.

We, America, save countries who were invaded by other countries. At least that what we are supposed to do. Tom

Where does this come from? The Constitution? The Bill of Rights? No this is not and never has been the reason America exists. This is an arguement for starting a war withcountries you think we should be fighting and an excusde to blame our leaders when they start a war you do not want a war with. Give me a list of what gives us a right to invade SOME countries. Remember Sadaam killed millions is that okay? Should we not have taken him out because the people he killed where Iraqi? Remember Iraq is a country made up of 3 earler countries where one took over the other two. Iraq only became Iraq in 1922 before that it was ruled by Britain after it was taken from Turkey and before that part of the Ottoman Empire and earlier it was called Mesopatamia. Now over the centuries all nationalities have interbreeded and it is the country of Iraq but till 1920 there was no Iraq and such no Iraqis.

Our government lied to the American people why we went there. Now they are trying to justicfy their lies with the good deeds of building up the country that we blew up. Does that not bother you in the least? Tom

Of course it does. I never argued it was a good idea. My issue is the one that despite just about every Senator and Congressman voting for the war certain uninformed peple think it was just George Bushh or Dick Cheney who did the deed. Why them and not Pelosi, Murtha and all the others? Well because they are my party so their misdeeds do not count.

We, as a country, need our integrity back. It begins with individuals holding people accountable for the decisions that were made.
Peace.Tom

This is just plain ludicrous. If you think we ever had a politician or leader or even the country had an image of integrity. Were we loved and respected when the hostages were taken in Iran and Carter was Prez? How about by the Cubans during the Bay of Pigs under Kannedy and he plotted with the Mafia to assassinate Castro, or by the Japanese on Dec 7 1941? I have not argued Bush was right. I have simply asked questions that would make the people who made statements prove it. It was assumed that since I had the temerity to question that I was for Bush. Frankly I do not trust either Party. And too many people in this country vote a party and not a platform based on their own self interest and think it is okay if their candidate does something that they bewail and moan about if someone from the other party does it.