VX go boom....

[Joe_Black]

Why does it always seem to come down to insulting the intelligence of others to validate beliefs? There was really no need for it. Personally, I'm glad for you that you've had such good past experience with Isuzu products over the last 20 years. But the specific subject being discussed is Vehicross reliability. Overall, Isuzu may very well have had a great track record with all their other vehicle models. But percentage-wise, based just on the total US production numbers for the VX from '99-'01, to say that the failure rate witnessed should be regarded as nothing more than a myth is almost equivalent to burying ones head in the sand. (And I'm basing that failure rate on just this board alone, it's possible that the numbers could be higher, and that some people who experienced problems never bothered to come here to discuss them. What IS the percentage of total, active Vehicross.info owners/posters when compared to total production #'s?)

I don't know why you seem to take these types of threads personally, but I really don't think anyone is implying that because you have been an Isuzu enthusiast over the years, you are now stupid just because their most high profile product to hits the streets in the last decade or so has had more than it's fair share of inherent problems. That would be an unfair generalization. So with all due respect, after having read the factual experiences listed here over the last few years regarding problems fellow owners have had (there's even a specific thread/poll based on engine failure for Christs' sake), I for one would appreciate the same consideration even though I've reached a less than mythical opinion of Isuzu.

My opinion on reliability issues takes into account an apples-to-apples angle when it comes to drivetrain reliability. Yes, the VX has it's own laundry list of quirks but the drivetrain is not at all unique to the vehicle. So if you're going to look at drivetrain reliability you need to look at JUST THE DRIVETRAIN. Isuzu did not make 5000 special engines for the VehiCROSS, they used the same exact 3.5L powerplant produced in the hundreds of thousands for the pre-'04 Axioms, Troopers, Rodeos, several light-truck models and even a few industrial trucks. (In the case of the '97 and '98 VX models the 3.2L was used.) If you want to just look at the failure rate in only VX applications then you're taking an unrealistic sample which is contrary to any acceptable goal of accuracy.

Yes, I've had very good experience with Isuzu products over the years but certainly don't hold them any higher than other product that has earned my attentions. Anything we manufacture or create is prone to failure or defect and many here have come to find that is all that the Isuzu marque holds for them, and that is truly unfortunate. But to take a small sampling of a much larger fact and slander it about the masses as gospel is haphazard and careless to the point of malevolent ignorance. That is what I take issue with. Do your due-diligence in research then share what you've found, seek before you speak. Nothing personal at all, just the facts.

[Rene M]

Hey you two go fight somewhere else....

[Chopper]

at least it's a four syllable type fight

[Y33TREKker]

...But to take a small sampling of a much larger fact and slander it about the masses as gospel is haphazard and careless to the point of malevolent ignorance. That is what I take issue with. Do your due-diligence in research then share what you've found, seek before you speak. Nothing personal at all, just the facts.

So what are the facts? You apparently know enough about Isuzu's failure percentages across their entire spectrum of products to claim that anyone who states otherwise is ignorant, so I for one am still curious. Does the 3.5 suffer the same failure rate percentage-wise in other Isuzu models as it does in the Vehicross with respect to production numbers? Since only a few thousand VX's were produced, I can't help but be curious to hear the percentage of 3.5 failures in those other hundreds of thousands of vehicles.

Sorry Rene. My curiousity takes me to bad places sometimes.

[Joe_Black]

My curiousity takes me to bad places sometimes.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that! And you've got a very valid question regarding failures versus total applications. And please, I'm not stating that anyone with opinions opposite mine is ignorant just that not taking in all the facts before jumping on the engine failure bandwagon is ignorance.

So, back to engine failures versus total applications: I don't have any hard numbers, just conversations with fellow Isuzu enthusiasts over the years across an international spread of products. Prior to the VehiCROSS the biggest conversational topics among fellow Trooper enthusiasts was transmission and axle robustness, oh and of course those afflicted with the dreaded GM-based V6. After being involved with the VX group for a few years the failure myth popped into existence more from this group being in existence than from any significant flaw. Over at ITOG and PlanetIsuzoo you'd get the occassional post or discussion about a catastrophic engine failure trying to determine cause and how best to address, especially when under the 10 year/120K mile factory warranty. But for the most part the other models simply didn't get the sensationalism about engine failures as generated in the VX community.

Again, I don't have hard numbers. My opinion is just that, an opinion borne of my observations across the Isuzu communities during the life of the 3.5L engine from it's introduction until present day. I could very well be completely wrong in my assessment and welcome any information to bear that out. Don't just tellme I'm wrong, showme I'm wrong. I'll be more than happy to learn and move on so we can all learn some more.

[Y33TREKker]

...Don't just tellme I'm wrong, showme I'm wrong.

I believe I was only asking for the same consideration. I must say that it was very convenient of you to claim someone elses' opinion based on similar observation bordered on malevolent ignorance, when you yourself didn't have actual facts to the contrary, only another opinion (as objective or subjective as it may be).

After being involved with the VX group for a few years the failure myth popped into existence more from this group being in existence than from any significant flaw.

And I still don't understand how you can continue to refer to the number of 3.5 engine failures in Vehicrosses (as documented on this message board) as a myth, or dare to include them in the VX's laundry list of "quirks". (That's somewhat akin to saying that the glass is half full, but oh yeah, the liquid in question is gasoline).

The 3.5 may very well be a robust engine, and I can only hope that the owners of other Isuzu models it's used in don't have to live with the same fear that theirs may at any time also suffer similar premature catastrophic failures as experienced in the Vehicross community.

Maybe the problem is not with the engine itself, but with one of the specific secondary control systems used in the VX, like the EGR, or the ECU programming. (I know it sometimes makes me cringe anyway to see the way the tach dances throughout the rpm range as upshifts and downshifts are selected). But secondary control or ???, it is still the engine that fails. So the fact remains, as witnessed on this board, that the VX 3.5 engine failure-rate/life-expectancy could objectively be seen as outside the norm, whatever the cause....in my opinion.

[Joe_Black]

Okay, here's my last flog of the horse carcass regarding this: First off, the only "myth" referred to is that the 3.5L engine is prone to premature failure. I have never disputed the fact that there have been some unfortunate failures within our community. What I take issue with is the assumption that these failures are of an abnormal number for a production automotive engine. The poll here indicates 47 failures out of approximately 5000 VX's produced, which if the 3.5L engine were unique to the VX would indicate a 1% failure rate. ONE PERCENT. Now, during the three years of US-destined VX shipment Isuzu produced 292,435 light trucks which is documented in their corporate production plans. I haven't been able to locate the actual number of 3.5L engine used in that number, but it will be among the vast majority as this group includes the Trooper, Rodeo, Rodeo Sport, pickup trucks and similar models. I'm not including the Axiom as it was introduced after '01 and in this example I'm only including production numbers for 1999, 2000 and 2001. So, if just for fun, we say one-third of that three year production (97,478 vehicles) was equipped with the 3.5L engine (and I'll include the VX production in that number to make your odds better) then the total failure percentage from our community poll drops to .05% failure rate. We're just playing with very conservative numbers here, but needless to say if we had the actual unit number of 3.5L engines produced for vehicles you'd find that any documented failures attributable to flaws/defects would be well within production norms.

Does that make it suck any less for those who have had their engine puke? Most certainly not. But my only concern with this assumption that the 3.5L engine will self destruct is that the potential VX owner will find themselves ill-informed based on flawed data. Hopefully this will be my final and last attempt to point this out, I will no longer oppose that viewpoint. The floor is yours...

[ZEUS]

This is interesting... I think you both have good points. It doesn't change the fact I hope my motor doesn't blow... But it was fun to read.

[Y33TREKker]

Okay, here's my last flog of the horse carcass regarding this:

I hope you aren't presuming you are the only one to feel that way.

First off, the only "myth" referred to is that the 3.5L engine is prone to premature failure.

I think you should go back and read your second post in this thread. You specifically referred to the myth in question as being about VX's having engine problems. Skewing the numbers in favor of your opinion by including production numbers for all Isuzu models that use the 3.5 would do very little to nothing in helping to determine the root cause of the problem in the VX.

Admittedly, neither of us is probably capable of total objectivity at this point, so in conclusion, I'll just submit a last bit of knowledge recently reviewed with our old friend Webster.

myth (mith) n. [[< Gr mythos ]]: 1: a traditional story serving to explain some phenomenon, custom, etc. 2: mythology 3: any fictitious story, person, or thing. myth'i-cal adj.

Call me skeptical, but I don't think it would go over very well if you were to gather together all the VX owners who have experienced engine failures (whether they are considered premature or not), and tell them you think the problem is just imaginary.

[VCrossfan]

IF and When mines goes...it's getting an LS2 (or close to it) w/4 speed auto. TOD pulled and will be lowered (a wee bit) and 2wd from then on. All for the price some have paid for the same 3.5 replacement. And I'll have the TOD I pulled w/tranny "if good" For Sale. Also a Brand New (0 miles) TOD I will also have For Sale. I hope that day never comes, it's at 130k miles and running great. (fingers crossed)

A buddy just rolled his 07 GTO, a couple of us might pitch in and get it (one wants the interior, I'll take the motor/tranny and all the support equipment)

[johnnyapollo]

It would be interesting to see how many VXes have had their engines actually replaced under Isuzu 10 yr/120k warranty. Personally I don't think the 3.5 (or the earlier 3.2) is a bad engine, or one prone to failure, I do think the point about failure in VXes should be examined a bit closer. The VX was rather unique to Isuzu in that it was built as a true rally inspired SUV - one factor that's very different between a typical VX owner and someone driving a Rodeo or Trooper is general driving habit. I think the VX owner tends to push the design a bit more due to what makes the VX so much fun - handling, performance, capability. That mixture could put additional strain on the engine and systems not found in the other models, contributing to engine failure. The general concensus has been that if it was going to fail, it would due so well before the 100k threshhold, with those few that fail at later odometer readings being questionable (abused or not maintained). A slightly flawed engine that's driven hard would show a higher failure rating than one that's not - is my thinking. Comments?

When you look at the history behind the Chevy 350 small block, I'm betting more in sports models failed than in trucks or vehicles that were more 'family' in nature. I about killed the motor in my 69 Nova just because of my driving habits when I was behind the wheel. It just came natural to push the motor a bit more than necessary - the "SS" badging on the car didn't help at all.

-- John

[Reg Hinnant]

Rene, I'm sorry you had this happen . Hopefully you will get the company to take care of it.

I agree with John BUT it dosen't go over well when I have 119,000 miles of daily driving with numerious off road trips thrown in. Guess i should have really been worried when I was in places where it would have been left to rot if it had a major breakdown.
BTW it's for sale & should be good for a few more miles.

[deermagnet]

I've been reading about the oil usage of these engines and some failures for 7.5 years now at various Isuzu boards. There's little doubt that there was a design or assembly problem that leads to the oil usage issue, probably involving the piston rings. However, I don't believe that alone is the cause of failures. The main problem seems to be people not checking their oil often enough, even after reading about this issue many times. I never thought my engine was affected either, until about the mid-60K's when I noticed it was suddenly using more oil than it should. If I had not been on top of this, I could have lost my engine to low oil like many others have. Since then I check my oil as much as four times a week, even after a 50 mile run, and add small amounts as needed. 100,000 miles later my engine runs absolutely fantastic at 165K, even while adding more oil than an engine should need over that whole time.

All engines can fail at any time. I know that all the failures have not been from low oil and some are lost to legit bearing problems or other problems that any engine can experience. Sometimes people may not like to admit that their VX just plain ran out of oil, and blame it on a failed bearing. Afterall, this is the internet where anything goes. Some have explained that they heard bad noises and then checked the oil to find none on the dipstick. One member described hearing bad sounds and stopping at their mechanic to have a listen, and after popping the hood and high revving the engine, decided to check the oil level and.... well, you know what happens next. A bright, shiny new engine goes in which possibly could have been avoided.

I love my engine, even with the oil usage, and won't be surprised if it runs great for 300,000 miles or more. Change the oil at least every 3K miles and check the oil every other day or more. Don't drive it like ya stole it and maybe you'll enjoy your oil-burning engine for twenty years without a failure. It's the same deal with the tranny which some claim is weak. Mine works like new and has never skipped a beat. I've had the fluid changed four times and I don't abuse it. That puppy might out live my engine.

Don't worry, be happy.

Apparently, these engines did get modified/updated at some point. It looks like all the Vehicri got the old, affected engines.


Mark Griffin (a VX lifer)

[johnnyapollo]

I'm about to hit 100K myself and she's still running strong! I can only hope that she'll last as long as yours, Mark.

-- John

[Rene M]

Are you two done thread jacking?

Any way shes back with a reman motor in there so off to another 98k..