Sludge under valve covers

[Otto]

I want to use the engine flush you can buy at the auto parts store, but I hear you have to be carefull not to clog the oil pump screen which could cause major damage to the engine. I hear it's recommended with heavy sludge to drop the oil pan & clean the pan & pump screen with a major flush, is this true?

[Joe_Black]

Use of a good quality synthetic like Mobil-1 or AMSOIL will remove most build-up over time with regular oil & filter changes thanks to their excellent detergent qualities. The amount of "sludge" starting this thread is relatively insignificant compared to that encountered in extreme service environment engines with high mileage and exclusive petroleum lubrication. In that instance a more thorough cleaning of the block and oil galleries can produce enough material to pose a problem to circulation or even blockage.

The area underneath the valve covers is a unique "in engine environment" as the build-up there comes from a combination of oil vapor, oil splash (from valve train) and water vapor produced by normal engine condensation. So what you see there isn't necessarily indicative of what the rest of the engine is like, and being valve covers you can just scrub with a stiff brush and degreaser followed by a good hosing off.

This will be a much more relevant topic for those VX owners not using synthetics as we start getting more machines with 200K miles and higher.

[Otto]

Thank you Joe for your help,I feel much better driving my VX knowing my engine is not a sludge bucket waiting to die. I will follow up with more oil changes and keep up with Mobil 1. Thanks everyone for there thoughts on this subject.

[Tone]

Joe, you amaze me again. I recommened an off the shelf product, the base of which is diesel. Do tell what you think these nasty things d and k can do inside an idleing engine?

[Joe_Black]

Joe, you amaze me again. I recommened an off the shelf product, the base of which is diesel. Do tell what you think these nasty things d and k can do inside an idleing engine?

They can do a great deal of damage, and it's well documented. It is true that diesel and kerosene are good solvents, but there's a big difference between a solvent and a dispersant which is what engine oil does. It's a well known and often unfortunate fact that using a fuel-based solvent on engine internals can irreparably damage seals and bearing surfaces. Galling on bearing surfaces after such a treatment leads in short order to failure, most often in the crank bearings as they are usually completely immersed during the "treatment". Those with chemistry backgrounds will recognize that fuels such as diesel and kerosene, which are petroleum distillates, alter the chemisty of engine oil inhibiting its ability to film and adhere to engine load surfaces.

The "myth" of the kerosene/diesel flush and the snake oils based on it are self perpetuating. But what goes on inside your engine block is no myth, and you want one thing in contact with it at all times and that's a properly specified engine oil. Plain and simple. Kerosene and diesel are good for washing engine parts and any other internal use will lead a healthy engine to the parts washer in no time.

I mentioned above that the manuals for my vintage Caterpillars specify using kerosene as an "engine wash", but there are specific procedures followed to eliminate any residue before putting the engine back into operation such as using straight mineral oil as an after-flush conditioner to help the bearing surfaces adhere to fresh engine oil. Also these old engines used leather for seals which was relatively unaffected by kerosene, which can attack and damage the seals in our engines.

[Tone]

Wow, I must be the exception to the norm having done it for 30yrs on as many vehicles, all driven hard and never lost an engine or a seal. We're talking about one quart of solvent to 5 quarts of oil, at idle, and then drained, the left over distillates evaporating. Oil will go right back to doing it's intended job just fine - this ain't rocket science.

Guess there is a conspiracy with GUNK and engine manufactures - use this product and it ruins your engine. Please site sources and not generalize as you are prone to do with statements like the below and that it is "all over the internet" which in itself means little since everyone on the 'net seems to be an "expert" without any backup. I state facts from experience, NOT what others have said on the net.

And how are all those projects that you continually speak of doing? How about talk about it AFTER you actually do it, if that ever occurs? Intentions are great but the road to **** is paved with good intensions.

[Joe_Black]

Please site sources and not generalize as you are prone to do with statements like the below and that it is "all over the internet" which in itself means little since everyone on the 'net seems to be an "expert" without any backup.

Admittedly I have on occasion made mention of "the net" and do apologize as it's not a good thing to do, but I don't feel I'm prone to that behavior and sincerely apologize if it comes across that way. However I will make an effort to post either scans or links to legitimate documentation supporting my opinion. I can't promise I'll dedicate a great deal of time to that immediately, as there is too much "life" going on at the moment but will make an effort. But you are exactly right in that the Internet gives many with little or no actual knowledge or experience a tremendous voice to others who don't think to research or question what is being said. It's almost as if those of us who make an honest and sincere effort to help and share what little we think we know should put a "disclaimer" in our posting signatures.

I state facts from experience, NOT what others have said on the net.

I'm very much in agreement with you and do the same. In fact I felt the same on the diesel/kerosene flushes initially until some discussions with family members and friends that are professional truck and industrial mechanics. What I learned left me with more questions and since I was beginning my own foray into auto mechanics more research substantiated what they had shown me. I know very, very little in the grand scheme of things and will always open my mind to alternatives. Diesel/kerosene flushes have worked for enough people to get into circulation, but the risks are far greater than the potential return. Especially when there are simpler and safer methods, as a vehicle is a lot of investment for most of us to gamble with.

And how are all those projects that you continually speak of doing? How about talk about it AFTER you actually do it, if that ever occurs? Intentions are great but the road to **** is paved with good intensions.

You're very right and I believe I've offered some public apologies at meets and here on the forum for not delivering as I had hoped. My worst trait is leaping to help others before accounting for prior commitments or simply evaluating what I've already got on my plate. The window fix, for example, has been the most recent bit of frustration as I get very little time to sit and work straight through on it. This leaves me in a "two step forward one step back" mode and it's been daunting to say the least considering how deceptively simple the little bugger seems. As for the bigger projects, like carbon fiber, it's simply been a matter of logistics. I've got a 2400 sq. ft. shop building sitting on pallets at our acreage waiting for construction. Now, it's been like two years since my first plans to work on the CF projects and we just received our first building permit for the smaller 1,000 sq. ft. shop. The land we have is largely reclaimed mining land, so I felt it prudent to have a geological survey performed and this led to a great number of complications and delays in getting to where we are now.

As for all the projects? On hold. Not abandoned, just on hold. So for all who may be perusing this thread and are aware I again offer apologies for any false hopes I may be responsible for creating. I do have many interests and spread myself very thin, so get very excited when something gets worked out in my head or a new approach presents itself. It usually ends up in a file with as much info as I can gather until the time is right for implementation, and in that I can be very patient as to do a thing right is better than to do it wrong.

And to you Tone I'm sorry if my opinion at times rubs you the wrong way. It's not my intention. In this instance I merely tried to keep someone from doing something I viewed as unnecessary and potentially hazardous, especially to the inexperienced. It wasn't meant or presented as a personal attack or to discredit you, and you've been a tremendous friend to the VX community in your time here. My opinion is flexible as needed, but for now the evidence and experience for me are very negative regarding diesel/kerosene flushes.