State vs aftermarket exhaust

[WyrreJ]

Therefore my [conspiracy] theory is that some level of obscurity is in the laws to keep people guessing so that if a cop wants to, he can find a reason, lawful or unlawful, to pull you over/inspect you/question you, whatever he wants to.

Follow the money. It's not set up that way for the cops, they are just a piece of the machine.

Who writes laws? Lawyers. The vast majority of legislators and the lobbyist class are lawyers, although it has not always been that way.

Who makes money when there is a question of law? Lawyers - all 3 parties in court making money are lawyers - counsel for defense, counsel for plantiff and the judge. Even if the issue does not go to court, chances are at least one lawyer gets paid as part of the process - the one who gets consulted by the defendent for advice.

Such a result is the inevitable result of the way the system is set up -- its the equivalent of letting the wolves guard the hen house.

[tbigity]

Follow the money. It's not set up that way for the cops, they are just a piece of the machine.

I agree in part. While, like I mentioned, they are part of the executive branch and not legislative (to enforce, not create the laws) they still dictate why they pull people over and I doubt the reason do so is to give some "suit" more padding in his pockets. As was my point, if a cop wants to do so, he will find something to pull you over for. As has been mentioned, could have been the wrong cop on the wrong day. Just like a cop will let a group of 5 speeders all in-tow go by him and only nab one of them...the one he thinks there is more reason to pull over. Just looking for a reason. There is a certain mentaility that goes along with being a cop that simply cannot be avoided to some extent. I cannot recount the name of the Professor of Psychology that did the experiement a few years back...studied it in my psyche class. But it took a group of students and isolated them from everything they knew and put them in a hypothetical situation where they were to role play for weeks at a time with no outside contact. Half where the prison guards (cops) and half where the inmates. Keep in mind that these were piers going in...long story short, they were straight up enemies after the study. One of the "cops" had to be taken out of the experiment because he nearly killed one of the "inmates." Keep in mind this was just roleplaying. Some of the "inmates" had to undergo therapy afterward because of the treatment they received from the "cops." The interesting thing was that the study was performed again this time the students that had played "inmates" where now the guards and anew group was brought in for the "inmates." Nearly the same result. Despite having encountered the brutality of the previous group of "guards", the new guards did not learn from the behavior, but rather, that behavior became all they knew of that roll and so, they adopted it.

The point of the study was that there are certain roles in society where the behavior is governmend more by what you think (consciously or subconsciously) that role is supposed to be and not what you want to be in that role.

However, like I previously stated:

love the work cops do and respect them.

[kpaske]

The interesting thing was that the study was performed again this time the students that had played "inmates" where now the guards and anew group was brought in for the "inmates." Nearly the same result. Despite having encountered the brutality of the previous group of "guards", the new guards did not learn from the behavior, but rather, that behavior became all they knew of that roll and so, they adopted it.

OR perhaps what they learned was that the system dictates (or at a minimum, encourages) a certain behavior.

[tbigity]

that was the neat thing about this...it was technically out of the system. Granted, that mentality could have been furnished by the system, but the only stimulus they had was what was going on in their heads. The only instruction they were given was "these students are guards, these are the inmates." Kinda like a "we become what we know and nothing more" thing. If nothing else it just showed the human reluctancy to change :-/

[kpaske]

I think it more likely highlights some of the natural tendencies of human beings who are placed in extremely unbalanced positions of power.

Then again, maybe they just behaved the way they thought inmates and guards were supposed to act based on previous experience (i.e. movies, tv, etc). It would be hard to eliminate this effect from the equation.

But we're getting off topic...

[tbigity]

Then again, maybe they just behaved the way they thought inmates and guards were supposed to act based on previous experience (i.e. movies, tv, etc). It would be hard to eliminate this effect from the equation.

I suppose I was unclear, because that was my point. In many, MANY fewer words. Can you start writing my posts for me?

[tbigity]

wyrrej: ZIMBARDO! THANK GOD!!! I tore my psyche books to shreds trying to find that. Thank you! Though I do think that is a bit deep for 3rd graders. You must have been a step above theothers for it to have made that big of a lasting impression on you, props!

Wormgod: I totally agree. It goes beyond just getting the matter taken care of. Go for it, man...take the stand. You have come this far and bent over backwards for them, might as well get some gain out of it all

[kpaske]

I suppose I was unclear, because that was my point. In many, MANY fewer words.

Well, the point of the whole experiment, or at least what I read in the links that WyrreJ posted, was to show that the behavior of the participants was dictated by the situation, and not some predisposition in the individual. If you believe the argument that they were behaving based on some preconceived notion of how they were expected to behave, it sort of invalidates the experiment. Personally I think it was probably a combination of the two effects, but I think there is still some validity to what Zimbardo was trying to prove.

[WyrreJ]

Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
http://www.prisonexp.org/

When I was in 3rd grade, in public school, our teachers made us do a very similar thing. The entire grade of a couple of hundred kids in 7-8 classes was divided in half - kids who had to wear big construction paper blue collars and those who did not have to wear them. The blue collared were "bad" and the others were "good." The "bad" had to sit at their desks, be silent and do nothing as punishment for being "bad" while the good got to play games and stuff - any bad kids who did not behave got sent to "solitary." At various points in the day, the good and the bad got to interact with much more mild results than zimbardo got, but definitely along those lines.

Then after lunch break, the roles were reversed.

I remember being sent to "solitary" for just trying to find out WTF was going on.
And I remember after lunch when we switched roles and no longer had to wear a blue collar, just being so grateful that it was over that I didn't question why I was now "good" when I had been "bad" before.

Then, for the last hour or so of class, the collars came off and no one was "good" or "bad" and they had us all talk about the experience. It was probably one of the biggest, most clear-cut formative experiences of my youth. It taught me that 'authority' does not deserve respect simply for being authority and that societal or group beliefs (or prejudices) of what is "good" and "bad" are just as likely to be false as they are to be correct.

[WormGod]

So.... my EX said she can "make it go away as if it never happened". I never question lawyers and their Weirding Ways, and it sounds good to me, but I kind of relish the idea of going to court to make a stand and made my point of view heard. Although, my EX, who knows me quite damned well, said that the way I state my case (any case, to anyone, anywhere), she will be posting my bail to get me out for a Contempt ruling, heh. She is um... quite right though. Hell, I was found in contempt years ago just for fighting a traffic ticket! So ya, I should think about it.