Israel vs. Hezb'Allah

[WyrreJ]

If reducing Hezbollah's ability to "lob rockets" is Israel's goal, the plan has certainly backfired. Each time Israel announces how succesful they've been at reducing Hezbollah's offensive capabilities, Hezbollah fires off even more rockets, even deeper into Israel than they have before.

Actually blaming the civilians themselves for not doing enough to stop hezbollah is really out of whack. With at least a third of the population below the poverty line, they've got enough problem just surviving, never mind worrying about some other country. If Israel wants Lebananon to to protect it from hezbollah, blowing the crap out of the country's infrastructure sure won't help acheive that goal. As far as I can tell, prior to this attack, Israel hadn't contributed a dime of aid to Lebanon at all, much less their security infrastructure.

You seem content to buy into the claim that Israel must kill every last one of them and anyone unlucky enough to get in the crossfire, because they aren't rational humans, they are bloodthirty, unreasonable monsters. That's the big lie that all governments use to justify killing innocents ("Sadam is a mad man," "Kim Jong Il is a mad man," "Gaddafi is a mad man," "Noriega is a mad man," "Milosevic is a mad man" "Castro is a mad man," "Arafat is a madman," the list is practically endless). I've heard the lie enough already and seen enough contrary facts already that anytime it gets used, its proof enough for me that it is a lie. No more free passes with that one, especially when it is used to justify killing people who have nothing to do with the dispute anyway.

[maxw]

You can choose to ignore history, choose to ignore that the Palestinian situation was born of their Arab brothers telling them to flee as their righteous armies swept the Jews into the sea and destroyed the Zionist State ; choose to ignore that these terrorists of which this was born were applauding the horror of 9/11 and the death of the infidels; choose to ignore that Hezballah does not direct attacks on military targets, but seeks out, solely and utterly ,civilians ; choose to ignore that these cowards choose to place their bases amongst innocents so that they may then ask for intervention by third parties; choose to ignore that they are like children who kill their parents and then ask the court to be merciful because they are poor orphans. But one thing you cannot ignore , and that is that unlike their neighbors, when Israel mistakenly wounds and injures children and civilians, the only true and longstanding democracy in the Middle East mourns and debates, hearing an outcry from within as opposed to the celebrations of their neighbors when Israeli civilians are purposefully targetted by these cowardly murderers who masquerade as so-called resistance fighters, and who then flee to hide amongst their sacrificial civilian brethren.
If innocence is the first casualty of war, then truth is surely the second.

[WiSDoM]

That's the big lie that all governments use to justify killing innocents ("Sadam is a mad man," "Kim Jong Il is a mad man," "Gaddafi is a mad man," "Noriega is a mad man," "Milosevic is a mad man" "Castro is a mad man," "Arafat is a madman," the list is practically endless). I've heard the lie enough already and seen enough contrary facts already that anytime it gets used, its proof enough for me that it is a lie. No more free passes with that one, especially when it is used to justify killing people who have nothing to do with the dispute anyway.

Jeezes what facts have you seen that these people are not complete bastards? What world are you living in? I wouldn't want any of these people living near me let alone running my country. You might want to stop watching Al-Jazeera and maybe tune into main stream new agencies. I am just wondering why you left out Hugo Chavez, Pol Pot, and Papa Doc and Baby Duvalier or any number of other bastards. I don't know maybe even Hitler, sure why not add him too your dinner party list?

Any else want to add to the list of innocents?

[biju]

Mr. Kruen - my 9th grade math teacher...

-biju.

[WyrreJ]

Jeezes what facts have you seen that these people are not complete bastards?

Slow down.
Read carefully.
Think.

I said they are not madmen. I did not say they were not abusive and responsible for a lot of pain and suffering. There is a HUGE difference - they can be counted on to act rationally, if you understand the environment in which they operate. Same thing goes for most of Hezbollah. Certainly the ones running the show.

I guarantee that the CIA and other intelligence reports on Hezbollah and all of those people that I listed do not say, "they are madmen." Instead they try to understand their motivations, goals and constraints in order to better predict their future actions.

Sun Tzu said, “Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.” Dismissing your enemy as a madman is a surefire way to lose the battle. In fact, Sun Tzu also said, “Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.” In otherwords, if you can't figure out what your enemy is thinking and simply decide that they are crazy, then chances are, he's going to kick your ạss.

You might want to stop watching Al-Jazeera and maybe tune into main stream new agencies.

Mainstream? Mostly regurgitated press releases. I don't need to be told how to think and you don't either. Stop watching tv news completely. Stop reading McNews like Time Magazine. The internet gives you access to all kinds of resources. If you were taught how be a critical thinker, you can learn a lot about how the world really works.

For example - did you know that the USA was, until just recently, the largest donor to north korea? If Kim Jong Il is such a nutjob, what were we doing supporting him? Do you think he might miss all that free stuff? What options do you think he has to try and turn that spigot back on? What do you think the military arm of the government wants to do?

Another example - do you know where Hezbollah came from? What event caused the formation of the group? Israel's bombing of Lebanon in 1982 directly lead to their organization as a means to resist the attacks. Deja vu?

Or, how about, this one: Why did Hezbollah kidnap those israeli soliders? To torture them to death? Behead them on tv? Perhaps the 2004 prisoner exchange between Hezbollah and Israel - 1 abducted businessman and 3 soldiers' bodies for ~350 palestinian and arab prisoners - might have had something to do with it? Did you know that Hezbollah wanted 3-4 prisoners from israel in exchange for their men back alive?

Is it right that hundreds of lebanese civilians had to die, and hundreds of thousands have to suffer the destruction of most of the infrastructure in their communities because Israel won't do a prisoner swap like they did just a year and a half ago? Or was kidnapping those men part of the total annihilation of Israel?

[WyrreJ]

Max - do you honestly believe that your statements are the whole truth of the situation? That the conflict there is so totally one-sided? If you do, then you've just proven my point about the big lie, you've swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

You can choose to ignore history, choose to ignore that the Palestinian situation was born of their Arab brothers telling them to flee as their righteous armies swept the Jews into the sea and destroyed the Zionist State

This is Hezbollah in lebanon, not palestine. See my previous post. Hezbollah's was created in response to a very similar set of attacks on Lebanon back in 1982.

choose to ignore that these terrorists of which this was born were applauding the horror of 9/11 and the death of the infidels;

How many Americans partied all night long after all the innocents were killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

choose to ignore that Hezballah does not direct attacks on military targets, but seeks out, solely and utterly ,civilians ;

If that's true - then how did Hezbollah get ahold of these israeli soliders? Not cvilians, soldiers. You might want to dig into the answer to that question, turns out the soldiers that were kidnapped were on lebanese terrority to begin with. What where they doing there?

choose to ignore that these cowards choose to place their bases amongst innocents so that they may then ask for intervention by third parties;

Have you heard any lebanese complaining about such tactics? You would think these innocents would be pretty damn pissed about being used that way. So who is complaining? Maybe they have a motive behind such complaints?

choose to ignore that they are like children who kill their parents and then ask the court to be merciful because they are poor orphans.

WTF? Sounds like just another version of the "they're madmen" to me. Or maybe "they are Mendenze."

But one thing you cannot ignore , and that is that unlike their neighbors, when Israel mistakenly wounds and injures children and civilians, the only true and longstanding democracy in the Middle East mourns and debates,

So Israel finally pulls out of lebanon after almost 2 decades, and they finally get syria off their back all on their own and start to form a democratic government, but that doesn't count since its not "true and longstanding." Isn't that more than a little like blaming the victim?

hearing an outcry from within as opposed to the celebrations of their neighbors when Israeli civilians are purposefully targetted by these cowardly murderers who masquerade as so-called resistance fighters, and who then flee to hide amongst their sacrificial civilian brethren.

Honorable men throw rocks at 100 million dollar tanks.

I'm not going to deny that terrorist attacks don't kill innocents. But despite all the "mourning and debating" the "only true and longstanding democracy" keeps right on killing innocents too and and hiding behind billions of dollars worth of military equipment. The two are remarkably similar - terrorist attacks target civilians because hitting military targets armed and defended with the absolute latest technology is just about impossible. Military bombing attacks kill civilians because hitting only hezbollah members is just about impossible.

Each side has their justifications for killing the innocents. Either way, innocent people still end up dead and either way the dead don't care what excuse the killers have.

[transio]

Can't blame Max for his view. Israel is not at fault for the situation they're in. But then again, neither are the Arab nations at fault for their situation.

We're at fault. The West. We birthed the situation and allowed it to grow and fester - neglecting it, even feeding it at times.

Now we conveniently wash our hands of it: "Those crazy 'extremist' Muslims and 'primadonna' Zionists... why can't they get along?"

[WiSDoM]

Israel went into Lebanon in 1982 because of the PLO. I am not blaming the Lebanese people for any of this mess. When has Israel attacked another country or group unprovoked? If terrorist groups are allow to operate in and out of your country then there are going to be innocent deaths when being delt with. Should Israel done the hostage exchange 18 months ago? Should you encourage kidnappings by dealing with terrorist groups? What do you think would happen if Israel just disarmed and refused to defend itself?

[kpaske]

choose to ignore that these cowards choose to place their bases amongst innocents so that they may then ask for intervention by third parties;

Have you heard any lebanese complaining about such tactics? You would think these innocents would be pretty damn pissed about being used that way.

I concur with most of your statements, but I have to interject on this one. When bad men come to your village or town and recruit a handful of your most able-bodied men, it's very easy to control the entire village. Especially when there is an absense of anyone else (i.e. policemen, soldiers) to prevent it from happening. When half the policemen and soldiers are also corrupt, it makes resistence for those villagers nearly impossible. Besides, the situation looks very different from the outside looking in. We can sit here and talk about how the "innocent" should kick all the bad people out of their villages, but the immediate reality to them is that there is very little incentive for putting up a fight and the best stance to take from their point of view is neutral or indifferent.

[maxw]

WyrreJ feel free to believe what you wish and support whom you wish. I have lived it and continue to do so. I strongly disagree with your position. You have missed the point of my response through your own bias.

Dennis Miller recently said the following about the Middle East situation:

"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service
to all Americans who still don't get it,
I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs,
which is all you really need.

Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country.
There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.
It's a made up word.
Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient
but is really a modern invention

Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war,
Gaza was owned by Egypt, the West Bank was owned by Jordan,
and there were no "Palestinians."

As soon as the Jews took over and started growing
oranges as big as basketballs,
what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians,"
weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian"
anymore to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy
at our deaths, until someone points out they're being taped.




Instead, let's call them what they are

:
"Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life
And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In
The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN.
How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."
Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country.
Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't.
They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years,
especially two years ago at Camp David
but if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights
and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse,
you actually have to figure out some way to make a living.

That's no fun. No, they want what all the other
Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel.
They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course --
that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel.

Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity"
as their textbooks call it --
for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries
to divert the attention of their own people
away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate,
poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth,
and if you've ever been around God's Earth . . . you know
that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic
about the great history and culture of the Muslim Midleast.
Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the
world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that
one.

Chew this around & spit it out: 500 million Arabs; 5 million Jews.
Think of all the Arab countries as a football field,
and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it.
And now these same folks swear that, if Israel gives them
half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals..

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to
obliterate the tiny country and the constant din
of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea?
Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day:
Just reverse the Numbers.
Imagine 500 million Jews and 5 million Arabs.
I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it .
Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades
and dynamite to themselves? Of course not.

Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations
to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense.
Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.
Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their
bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace,
the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that,
with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as
Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible,
and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of
super models who've just had their drugs taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger
of losing moral weight. We've already lost some.
After September 11th, our president told us and the world he was going
to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them.
Beautiful.
Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of
an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day),
start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day,
we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration
to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean
and east of the Jordan.

Please feel free to pass this along to your friends
Walk in peace! Be Happy! Have a wonderful life"