Israel vs. Hezb'Allah

[thebear54]

VX TALK...........YES

POLITICS.........NO

Although sympathetic this is NOT a subject for a Car Club Forum

There is no need for any kind of conflict or war if people would stop reacting with emotions instead of good common sense and the brains which God gave all of us.

John

[Soulpower]

Even though this is a car forum, I (and probably most on this forum) see this more as a VX OWNER'S, their FAMILIES & COMMUNITY forum. Hence, over the years, I've felt fortunate to be "included" in other members' general "triumphs, trials and tribulations". It w'ld be a sad day when members are no longer allowed to express themselves on other topics other than the VX. Nuff said!

[ZEUS]

I think the Lebanon I remember as a 16 year old ('69-'70) was one of the most beautiful, magical,places in the world. A cosmopolitan, almost European style...some how infused with 6000 years of culture and continuity. The place where humans first learned seafaring,the result being,a place made up of little bits of the whole worlds ideas and ways. My description comes up short. I look now and feel only hollow. When all the humans are gone, maybe then the Cedars will regrow... it will be beautiful again.

Chopper, that's great... poetic even.
In man as a whole, sometimes the only thing that seems to be evolving is the use of technology, propaganda, and weaponry to display power. True power would be to overcome the urge to have it. If there is a Godhead which created all Chopper described above and more why would it also create a "religious following" so vain to destroy it? I think we are all witness to a glorified gang war full of excuses! The innocents of the neighborhoods suffer the most and there is more than one way to fall victim... How can it end when those who fight fail to see what they should be fighting for?

[WyrreJ]

I can second Chopper. My aunt spent most of high school there (my grandfather worked for Aramco for a while) and she has said that it was an incredible place.

[E-ZooZoo One]

After my last post, I've found myself re-reading quite a bit of Twain...
It turns out that there are a few more quotes I'd like to share:

�Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion
-- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself, and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven.�

�Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth.�

�Man is the only animal that blushes -- or needs to.�

- Mark Twain (excerpts from �The Lowest Animal� essay)

[Moncha]

Well said and very true! That's why there is a chit chat section.
The Big Thread Closer in the sky will come down when things get out of hand (as in the past). So far, so good.. Keep it that way and we will always have a family forum....

Even though this is a car forum, I (and probably most on this forum) see this more as a VX OWNER'S, their FAMILIES & COMMUNITY forum. Hence, over the years, I've felt fortunate to be "included" in other members' general "triumphs, trials and tribulations". It w'ld be a sad day when members are no longer allowed to express themselves on other topics other than the VX. Nuff said!

[Heraclid]

Someone is to blame for the suffering of the Lebanese people alright, but not Israel. I support Israel, which is only doing what it must to survive. They have bent over backwards for peace before and it has gotten them nothing. This is of course because nothing less than the total annihilation of Israel will make these Islamic radicals happy. Not even that, actually - they won't be content to stop there. I felt a bit less sorry for Lebanon when they said their army would fight against Israel should there be an invasion. I realize it is hard when Hezbollah pretty much has free reign of the place. But until the Lebanese people take a stand to root out this evil from within and take back their country, they are just contributing to the problem. While they permit these nuts to live among them, then naturally they too will continue to die in Israeli airstrikes. This is Hezbollah's fault for using them as human shields, not Israel's fault. Israel cannot just allow Hezbollah to lob rockets at them, collateral damage or not.

[WyrreJ]

If reducing Hezbollah's ability to "lob rockets" is Israel's goal, the plan has certainly backfired. Each time Israel announces how succesful they've been at reducing Hezbollah's offensive capabilities, Hezbollah fires off even more rockets, even deeper into Israel than they have before.

Actually blaming the civilians themselves for not doing enough to stop hezbollah is really out of whack. With at least a third of the population below the poverty line, they've got enough problem just surviving, never mind worrying about some other country. If Israel wants Lebananon to to protect it from hezbollah, blowing the crap out of the country's infrastructure sure won't help acheive that goal. As far as I can tell, prior to this attack, Israel hadn't contributed a dime of aid to Lebanon at all, much less their security infrastructure.

You seem content to buy into the claim that Israel must kill every last one of them and anyone unlucky enough to get in the crossfire, because they aren't rational humans, they are bloodthirty, unreasonable monsters. That's the big lie that all governments use to justify killing innocents ("Sadam is a mad man," "Kim Jong Il is a mad man," "Gaddafi is a mad man," "Noriega is a mad man," "Milosevic is a mad man" "Castro is a mad man," "Arafat is a madman," the list is practically endless). I've heard the lie enough already and seen enough contrary facts already that anytime it gets used, its proof enough for me that it is a lie. No more free passes with that one, especially when it is used to justify killing people who have nothing to do with the dispute anyway.

[maxw]

You can choose to ignore history, choose to ignore that the Palestinian situation was born of their Arab brothers telling them to flee as their righteous armies swept the Jews into the sea and destroyed the Zionist State ; choose to ignore that these terrorists of which this was born were applauding the horror of 9/11 and the death of the infidels; choose to ignore that Hezballah does not direct attacks on military targets, but seeks out, solely and utterly ,civilians ; choose to ignore that these cowards choose to place their bases amongst innocents so that they may then ask for intervention by third parties; choose to ignore that they are like children who kill their parents and then ask the court to be merciful because they are poor orphans. But one thing you cannot ignore , and that is that unlike their neighbors, when Israel mistakenly wounds and injures children and civilians, the only true and longstanding democracy in the Middle East mourns and debates, hearing an outcry from within as opposed to the celebrations of their neighbors when Israeli civilians are purposefully targetted by these cowardly murderers who masquerade as so-called resistance fighters, and who then flee to hide amongst their sacrificial civilian brethren.
If innocence is the first casualty of war, then truth is surely the second.

[WiSDoM]

That's the big lie that all governments use to justify killing innocents ("Sadam is a mad man," "Kim Jong Il is a mad man," "Gaddafi is a mad man," "Noriega is a mad man," "Milosevic is a mad man" "Castro is a mad man," "Arafat is a madman," the list is practically endless). I've heard the lie enough already and seen enough contrary facts already that anytime it gets used, its proof enough for me that it is a lie. No more free passes with that one, especially when it is used to justify killing people who have nothing to do with the dispute anyway.

Jeezes what facts have you seen that these people are not complete bastards? What world are you living in? I wouldn't want any of these people living near me let alone running my country. You might want to stop watching Al-Jazeera and maybe tune into main stream new agencies. I am just wondering why you left out Hugo Chavez, Pol Pot, and Papa Doc and Baby Duvalier or any number of other bastards. I don't know maybe even Hitler, sure why not add him too your dinner party list?

Any else want to add to the list of innocents?

[biju]

Mr. Kruen - my 9th grade math teacher...

-biju.

[WyrreJ]

Jeezes what facts have you seen that these people are not complete bastards?

Slow down.
Read carefully.
Think.

I said they are not madmen. I did not say they were not abusive and responsible for a lot of pain and suffering. There is a HUGE difference - they can be counted on to act rationally, if you understand the environment in which they operate. Same thing goes for most of Hezbollah. Certainly the ones running the show.

I guarantee that the CIA and other intelligence reports on Hezbollah and all of those people that I listed do not say, "they are madmen." Instead they try to understand their motivations, goals and constraints in order to better predict their future actions.

Sun Tzu said, �Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.� Dismissing your enemy as a madman is a surefire way to lose the battle. In fact, Sun Tzu also said, �Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.� In otherwords, if you can't figure out what your enemy is thinking and simply decide that they are crazy, then chances are, he's going to kick your ạss.

You might want to stop watching Al-Jazeera and maybe tune into main stream new agencies.

Mainstream? Mostly regurgitated press releases. I don't need to be told how to think and you don't either. Stop watching tv news completely. Stop reading McNews like Time Magazine. The internet gives you access to all kinds of resources. If you were taught how be a critical thinker, you can learn a lot about how the world really works.

For example - did you know that the USA was, until just recently, the largest donor to north korea? If Kim Jong Il is such a nutjob, what were we doing supporting him? Do you think he might miss all that free stuff? What options do you think he has to try and turn that spigot back on? What do you think the military arm of the government wants to do?

Another example - do you know where Hezbollah came from? What event caused the formation of the group? Israel's bombing of Lebanon in 1982 directly lead to their organization as a means to resist the attacks. Deja vu?

Or, how about, this one: Why did Hezbollah kidnap those israeli soliders? To torture them to death? Behead them on tv? Perhaps the 2004 prisoner exchange between Hezbollah and Israel - 1 abducted businessman and 3 soldiers' bodies for ~350 palestinian and arab prisoners - might have had something to do with it? Did you know that Hezbollah wanted 3-4 prisoners from israel in exchange for their men back alive?

Is it right that hundreds of lebanese civilians had to die, and hundreds of thousands have to suffer the destruction of most of the infrastructure in their communities because Israel won't do a prisoner swap like they did just a year and a half ago? Or was kidnapping those men part of the total annihilation of Israel?

[WyrreJ]

Max - do you honestly believe that your statements are the whole truth of the situation? That the conflict there is so totally one-sided? If you do, then you've just proven my point about the big lie, you've swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

You can choose to ignore history, choose to ignore that the Palestinian situation was born of their Arab brothers telling them to flee as their righteous armies swept the Jews into the sea and destroyed the Zionist State

This is Hezbollah in lebanon, not palestine. See my previous post. Hezbollah's was created in response to a very similar set of attacks on Lebanon back in 1982.

choose to ignore that these terrorists of which this was born were applauding the horror of 9/11 and the death of the infidels;

How many Americans partied all night long after all the innocents were killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

choose to ignore that Hezballah does not direct attacks on military targets, but seeks out, solely and utterly ,civilians ;

If that's true - then how did Hezbollah get ahold of these israeli soliders? Not cvilians, soldiers. You might want to dig into the answer to that question, turns out the soldiers that were kidnapped were on lebanese terrority to begin with. What where they doing there?

choose to ignore that these cowards choose to place their bases amongst innocents so that they may then ask for intervention by third parties;

Have you heard any lebanese complaining about such tactics? You would think these innocents would be pretty damn pissed about being used that way. So who is complaining? Maybe they have a motive behind such complaints?

choose to ignore that they are like children who kill their parents and then ask the court to be merciful because they are poor orphans.

WTF? Sounds like just another version of the "they're madmen" to me. Or maybe "they are Mendenze."

But one thing you cannot ignore , and that is that unlike their neighbors, when Israel mistakenly wounds and injures children and civilians, the only true and longstanding democracy in the Middle East mourns and debates,

So Israel finally pulls out of lebanon after almost 2 decades, and they finally get syria off their back all on their own and start to form a democratic government, but that doesn't count since its not "true and longstanding." Isn't that more than a little like blaming the victim?

hearing an outcry from within as opposed to the celebrations of their neighbors when Israeli civilians are purposefully targetted by these cowardly murderers who masquerade as so-called resistance fighters, and who then flee to hide amongst their sacrificial civilian brethren.

Honorable men throw rocks at 100 million dollar tanks.

I'm not going to deny that terrorist attacks don't kill innocents. But despite all the "mourning and debating" the "only true and longstanding democracy" keeps right on killing innocents too and and hiding behind billions of dollars worth of military equipment. The two are remarkably similar - terrorist attacks target civilians because hitting military targets armed and defended with the absolute latest technology is just about impossible. Military bombing attacks kill civilians because hitting only hezbollah members is just about impossible.

Each side has their justifications for killing the innocents. Either way, innocent people still end up dead and either way the dead don't care what excuse the killers have.

[transio]

Can't blame Max for his view. Israel is not at fault for the situation they're in. But then again, neither are the Arab nations at fault for their situation.

We're at fault. The West. We birthed the situation and allowed it to grow and fester - neglecting it, even feeding it at times.

Now we conveniently wash our hands of it: "Those crazy 'extremist' Muslims and 'primadonna' Zionists... why can't they get along?"

[WiSDoM]

Israel went into Lebanon in 1982 because of the PLO. I am not blaming the Lebanese people for any of this mess. When has Israel attacked another country or group unprovoked? If terrorist groups are allow to operate in and out of your country then there are going to be innocent deaths when being delt with. Should Israel done the hostage exchange 18 months ago? Should you encourage kidnappings by dealing with terrorist groups? What do you think would happen if Israel just disarmed and refused to defend itself?