Rough Running after Timing Belt Install

[kpaske]

Just so I'm clear, let me describe how the marks lined up. If you are looking at the motor, and the top center is 12 o'clock, the passenger side pulley lined up at the 10 o'clock mark, and the drivers side and crank shaft pulley's both lined up at the 2 o'clock. Is this right?

[Joe_Black]

Since the 6VE1 is a non-interference engine you at least don't have to worry about bent valves. The timing belt removal/replacement is pretty clearly outlined in the shop manual, including the timing reference marks.



Number 8 on the diagram is a blow-up of the reference marks for the camshafts, numbers 2 and 5, while number 7 is a blow-up of the timing mark for the oilpump shaft, number 1. All three should align to those marks.

Also note, from the manual: When timing is performed, the number 2 piston will be at TDC.

When changing the timing belt the battery should have been disconnected (for safety) which would force an ECU reset as well.

Check your timing against the reference marks and let us know your findings. Good luck!

[kpaske]

Joe -

Yes, I think that is how I did it. The only part that looks unfamiliar is item 8 - I didn't line anything up on the left side of the cam shaft pulley, I just located the notch on the pulley (I'm pretty sure there was only one), and it lined up exactly with the mark at number 7.

Now the instructions mentioned having to crank the pulleys around several times (up to 9) in order to get them to line up. My cam shaft lined up after one rotation. The driver's side took about 3 or 4 full rotations, and the passenger side lined up after 1 or 2. When I say they "lined up", they sort of "popped" right into place.

I really think I lined it up correctly, and the diagram you just showed me is reassuring (because I felt the guide I was using was a little vague about where to line up the passenger side pulley). So why does my VX run so crappy now?? I've had a dead battery before - probably for a week or more when I was out of town - but I'm not sure if it was dead enough to reset the ECU. When I removed the battery to have it tested and recharged, it was probably disconnected for several hours. It didn't seem to have any issues readjusting then, and that was only a few months ago. The only real difference is that the whether was warmer, but this past week hasn't been too bad. This time I had the battery disconnected for about 4 days, so I know for sure that it should be reset. Should I just let it run for 15 or 20 minutes, or do I need to start driving it around? Is it most likely just going to improve with time? The vibration and back-firing have really got me worried.

Kyle

[Joe_Black]

I'm beginning to think one of your cams is out of time. Each cam has a "number 8" reference mark, where the "number 7" in the diagram is for the oil pump shaft (number 1). Did you verify that the #2 piston was at TDC when you rotated the cams to time? That's the crank reference. With all the backfiring and rough running you could have maybe two pistons out of time even, hopefully though it's just a pair of valves. I'm not intimately familiar with the 6VE1's sequence so am just generalizing.

If it were me I'd re-time from scratch using the Service Manual procedure, letter for letter.

[kpaske]

Each cam has a "number 8" reference mark, where the "number 7" in the diagram is for the oil pump shaft (number 1).

Joe, I don't understand what you mean here. The marks that I lined up were:

On the passenger side cam pulley there was a line on the front with a little bit of green paint on the edge. I lined this up with the mark on the block at about 10 o'clock.

On the driver side cam pulley there was also a line etched on the front with green paint on the edge. I lined this up with the mark on the block at about 2 o'clock.

The crank shaft pulley didn't have marks on the front, but a single notch on the back edge of the pulley. I lined this up with the mark on the block at about 3 o'clock.

To line these up, I basically just cranked them clockwise until they "popped" into place, meeting the mark exactly.

Did you verify that the #2 piston was at TDC when you rotated the cams to time? That's the crank reference.

What is TDC, and how would I verify this?

With all the backfiring and rough running you could have maybe two pistons out of time even, hopefully though it's just a pair of valves. I'm not intimately familiar with the 6VE1's sequence so am just generalizing.

If it were me I'd re-time from scratch using the Service Manual procedure, letter for letter.

Well, that's what I have to do if that is really the problem. I just need to understand what my mistake was so that I don't repeat it. I thought I had followed the instructions exactly...

[Joe_Black]

What is TDC, and how would I verify this?

TDC = Top Dead Center. One simple way is to remove the number 2 cylinder sparkplug and use a wooden dowel to "feel" the top of the piston. Using a wrench on the crankshaft rotate the engine until the piston is at it's highest point. Once you have it at TDC, then you align the rest of the timing marks while keeping the number 2 piston at TDC.

Clear as mud?

Do you have a copy of the Service Manual?

[kpaske]

Joe,

Thanks for your help (again... )

No, I don't have the Service Manual, but I do have the manual on CD, as well as Randy's How To and some pages that VCrossfan sent to me.

I guess I'll have to tear it apart and try it again...

By the way, which is the #2 cylinder? And if I've got to turn the pulleys to get everything to line up, how do I ensure that #2 stays at TDC?

[mbeach]

I gave advice based on this paragraph:

My cam shaft lined up after one rotation. The driver's side took about 3 or 4 full rotations, and the passenger side lined up after 1 or 2.

The point is, you turned various shafts independently of each other. It's too easy to miss the mark this way. If you want to spend days moving your cog(s) one tooth to the left/right than that's fine.

Here's another thought:
Where'd you get your replacement belt? If it's too long (would you know?) then it doesn't matter what you did right, your timing will wander from spec.

The RLTW was not a dig -I recall you mentioned that you were in 2d Batt before. I was being courteous.

[kpaske]

So if it is, in fact, 180 degrees off, it should be relatively easy to put it back in phase, right? I'm guessing that one cycle of the #2 cylinder is what it would take? In other words, rotate the drivers side cam until the piston moves from TDC, to the bottom, and back to TDC?

I don't think I'm one tooth off though - I took extra care to ensure that everything looked exact, and lined up the double line on the belt with the mark on the crank shaft pulley, leaving little doubt. I drew a little line on the belt tooth that corresponds to that mark so it would be easy to see when it lined up, and the lines on the cams line up fairly easily. Also, the cams sort of "pop" into place, so I think it's hard to screw those up.

The belt is a Gatorback, which is what several other members have used, so unless it is defective, there shouldn't be any issues with fitment.

If you guys are pretty sure it is 180 degrees off, if you could just confirm what the best way to make absolutely sure everything is lined up correctly, I've got no problem tearing it down and putting it back together. Third time's a charm, right?

P.S. Mbeach - I didn't think the "RLTW" was a dig, I just wasn't sure if there was some other meaning to the acronym, as I didn't think most people knew it to mean what I know it to mean. I'm surprised you remembered I'm with 2nd Bat.

[Joe_Black]

The belt is a Gatorback, which is what several other members have used, so unless it is defective, there shouldn't be any issues with fitment.

I know many have used the Gatorback for replacing the serpentine with great results, but for the timing belt I would personally not stray from the OEM. Plus, there's been a lot of negative reviews of the Gatorback timing belts among the import crowd due to stretching. After speaking with several folk about your issue I seriously doubt you're 180 degress off, but definitely a little. There's four cams there, and if just one is a tooth off you'd get what you've got now. The professional consensus is that it wouldn't even run at all at 180 degrees on even one set of cams.

I know you've probably checked this eleventy-billion times, but verify your belt is for the 6VE1 and not the 6VD1 or the 3.2L DOHC predecessor. I've seen 3.2L parts listed mistakenly for the 3.5L many times.

Wish we were closer by so we could gang-up on this problem with you!

[psychos2]

there is a tsb for replacing the timing belt.i do not remember what it said.does anyone know? when the marks are all lined up there is no way it could be out 180 degrees. my guess would be that it is off a tooth. shawn

[psychos2]

Joe -

Yes, I think that is how I did it. The only part that looks unfamiliar is item 8 - I didn't line anything up on the left side of the cam shaft pulley, I just located the notch on the pulley (I'm pretty sure there was only one), and it lined up exactly with the mark at number 7.

i was looking at the cd manual and noticed what you had said in an earlier post.the reference to 8 in the diagram is for the crank not the cam pulley.and i also noticed that in the manual it says to make sure the writing is facing so you can read it from the front of the vehicle.so my question is did you line the crankshaft mark on the belt to the drivers side or the passenger side of the motor? because you line up the mark on the drivers side with the mark on the crank pulley and then you line up the mark on the belt with the mark on the passenger side of the crankshaft gear.
do not know if this is what you did ,but i was confused when i first looked at the diagram.hope this helps shawn

[kpaske]

Yeah, I meant to say the crank shaft pulley... I'm not sure if I did it right the first time around, but the second time I'm positive that everything was lined up correctly. On the gatorback, there is a double line that lines up with the 9 o'clock position of the crank shaft pulley, and two single lines that each line up with the marks on the cam shaft pulleys. I'm beginning to think that maybe I had a defective tensioner, but at this point I'm so busy I really don't have much time to screw around with it. I'm going to take it to a shop and get it fixed, but I'll be sure to give everyone an update on what the problem was, so nobody else runs into a similar problem if they try to tackle this job themselves.

[VCrossfan]

Hey kpaske: The Lines on the Gator back for the crank lines up at 3:00 (looking at the motor) not 9:00. The notch on the crank pulley groove lines up with the Oil pump mark on the block, driver's side of the motor (in front looking at the motor it's 3:00)

Recap..Double lines together, drivers side of motor even w/pulley groove notch aiming at oil pump mark on the motor block (3:00 looking at the motor)

Single lines on belt...lining up with the camshaft pulley and line on head...

Look at page 16-26 / fig #7 lower pic on page...I emailed you..it shows the crank pulley notch and oil pump mark

And Joe_Black..thx for the headsup on the Gatorback belts. I'll check it every 10,20 k or so

[psychos2]

the gatorback belts have different marks than stock?and do not line up the same? shawn