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Thread: Ethanol in the News - 09.06.05

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  1. #1
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    ah-hem
    Turbomustangs.com along with Steve Cole Enterprises Inc (username: Karl Hungus) has completed some preliminary testing with the environmentally friendly, cheaper than 91 Octane, E85 fuel blend.
    First off what is E85? E85, is a motor fuel blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline to be used in flex-fuel vehicles. Ethanol is alcohol used in transportation fuels. It is a high-octane, liquid fuel, produced by the fermentation of plant sugars. In
    the United States, ethanol is typically produced from corn and other grain products, although in the future it may be economically produced from other biomass resources.

    Benefits:
    It has a motor octane rating of 104-108, it is also quite cold to the touch. It is currently about 1.99 per gallon, while 91 Octane is approximately 3.30 a gallon. E85 is cleaner burning, emitting a lot less greenhouse gasses. It is also a renewable resource. To top it off it is made 100% within the confines of the USA.

    Cons:
    It takes more of this fuel to create the same energy as regular gasoline. Therefore your car will use more fuel and you will see a decrease of approximately 10-15% in fuel economy. To make big horsepower you will need more fuel pump and more injector. Many people state that the fuel is corrosive and it could have adverse effects on aluminum fuel rails, injector o-rings and fuel lines. But so far in 9 months of testing we have seen no such side effects.

    Test Car
    1995 Mustang GT street car, 331 cubic inch, custom twin turbo system with twin T70 p-trims w/ .58 AR, T56 tranny, solid roller: 242/236, .600 lift.
    Fuel System: 3, 255lph Walbro in line fuel pumps, 160# injectors.
    No alky, no nitrous, no ice on the intake, etc.

    The first thing we did was add 40% fuel to the fuel map under WOT. We also added about 20% fuel in part throttle areas. We were tuning using a regular gasoline wideband air fuel ratio of 14:1 at part throttle. On the dyno the car made the best and cleanest power at 12:1.

    At 6 psi of boost and 35 degrees total timing the car made 575rwhp from 6000rpm until 7500rpm. The power never fell off. We tried less timing but the car didn’t respond well and the power curve was sloppier. At 13psi and about 29 degrees of timing we made 872rwhp. At 20psi and ~24 degrees of timing we made 989rwhp.
    At 30 psi and 20 degrees of timing we ended up with 1066rwhp. The fuel injectors were at 75% duty cycle at this power level. Whereas with gasoline they were at about 55%. The fuel pressure was also slightly falling off at the top. The lack of a large power increase from 20-30psi is due to the tiny exhaust housings on this street car.

    In total we made 16 dyno pulls and we never heard any detonation, but we did hit fuel cut a few times during testing. The next day the spark plugs were pulled and there may have been slight detonation in 2 of the cylinders because the porcelain was speckled. However the car still runs fine. This is definitely a very impressive fuel.
    I also want to point out how impressed I am with this solid roller setup. Sure it is slightly noisier than my tiny hydro cam. But you can’t argue with that sick power curve. At all boost levels the car makes peak power at 6000rpm and holds it solid until 7500rpm, I am sure it would pull up to 8000rpm no problem. Steve has also tried a larger hydraulic cam to get the same results but it just didn’t work. The cam was a comp extreme energy hyd roller: 248 @ .050 on int and exh, 114 lsa. The car also had larger 74mm turbos at the time but the power would peak at 6500rpm and drop like a rock, even with expensive valve springs. With the new small solid roller cam the car even lugs along at 1500rpm no problem and idles fine at 900rpm.
    http://www.turbomustangs.com/techart.../stevedyno.wmv
    2000 Black VX 105k

  2. #2
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    This is what I got from Maugan's article:

    If you're running big boost in a 1000 horsepower 'street' car that's been tuned for it, E85 is good stuff.
    But, if you are NA, driving to and from work, E85's lower cost is offset by it's poorer mileage and potential for serious fuel system (injectors, seals, etc.) damage. I'm not sure that this stuff is more or less corrosive than gasoline, but it seems to be cause for worry.

    Does that about sum it up?

  3. #3
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    Lightbulb

    This somewhat applies to E85 but is more generally info about fuel-grade ethanol: Ethanol has less energy density by volume than gasoline. So for a given amount of fuel you will have less range (average is 20%) than the same amount of gasoline. This is offset though by ethanol's lower cost, lower emissions and domestically renewable source. Not to mention water in ethanol has no effect on fuel delivery or performance and that it keeps your engine sparkling clean inside meaning longer life. Oh, and you can make up to 10,000 gallons yourself at home with a $35 BATF permit and the governement will give you a $.52 tax credit for every gallon you use.
    Over 20 years of Isuzu enjoyment...

  4. #4
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    I'm all for reducing dependence on foreign oil (but y'all better keep buying Alaska crude!).

    As for homegrown fuel, will the $$ saved ever pay for the cost of converting a non-flex-fuel vehicle over to safely/reliably burn E85? How about a homebrewed E50?

    How nasty/difficult is brewing ethanol at home anyway (not really an option here)?

  5. #5
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    Arrow

    Converting to flex-fuel, or E85, appears to be more difficult than going pure ethanol. With the pure ethanol you just ensure your fuel pump and system is compatible and upgrade as needed (viton o-rings, improved pump, stainless rail) and get injectors that flow about 30% more fuel. Reset the ECU and adjust from there. With flex-fuel the ECU needs to easily figure out and adjust if you're running E85, gas or a blend.

    Then again, this is what's frustrating about the US auto industry: We get the crappiest and most neutered vehicles on the planet to protect our domestic manufacturers, even though they produce a good portion of the foreign competition themselves. And many of the foreign autos are compatible with bio-fuels right off the showroom floor.

    As for making ethanol, it's very similar to making beer or wine with the exception of the distillation process. A still capable of making about 8 gallons an hour of 190-proof ethanol can be easily built for less than $500, much less if you're a good scrounger. The leftover material, or "mash", used for the fuel "beer" can usually be sold to local farmers for livestock feed. My plan is to use molasses as it's available nearby as a sugar production by-product and is very easy to ferment for distillation. Last time I priced it was about $60 a ton, which makes near 100 gallons of fuel IIRC.

    Check out the web site Journey to Forever for some fantastic info on bio-fuels.

  6. #6
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    Joe -

    Are you considering converting your VX over to flex fuel or pure Ethanol? I'm still keeping my eyes open for an old Mercedes to run bio-diesel, and who knows? If it works out well I might do a diesel conversion on the VX.
    Calmini Cone Air Filter, PowerVault PV2 Muffler, OME Trooper Springs, Rancho RS9000X Shocks, 285/75R16 Nitto Grappler AT's, Pioneer DEH P8000R In-Dash CD, Amps and Drivers Built by Orion, Wires and Fuse Blocks by KnuKonceptz, Vibration Damping by BQuiet, Alarm System featuring Auto Start and Remote Windows, Yakima LoadWarrior w/Full Size Spare, Debadged/Custom Titanium Grill Logo, Tint (5% Rear / 20% Front), Steel Braided Brake Lines, G2 Painted Calipers

  7. #7
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    Arrow

    I still have the intent to go pure ethanol in the future. I won't try or advocate anything that is at all reliant on petroleum based fuel, which E85 is.

    The recent sale of our 2001 Trooper means that my wife is now driving the '99 IronMan, which was to be my ethanol conversion. So that puts me in the spot of either keeping that vehicle within reach of a fuel supply or carrying addtional fuel if we want to drive it any significant distance rather than the '01 Dragon.

    So, the current plan is to purchase a pre-1986 Mercedes turbo diesel and experiment with B100 biodiesel. If we find it's simple and economical to make ourselves then we'll look to convert both VX's to diesel. I'll pickle the gas 6VE1 engines for future projects. The Isuzu engine in overseas intercooled turbo diesel Troopers is the 4JG2, and I've gotten a few quotes over the past week averaging around $3000 for a delivered low-mileage long block. But I have seen a 2nd-gen Trooper with a Mercedes OM617 conversion, but at the time took nothing more than passing interest. Wish I had looked MUCH closer now! The Mercedes crowd is getting wild performance out of that engine. Consider that an early 80's 300D weighs about as much as our VX and that people are drag racing their daily-drivers getting 13's in the 1/4. And that's without any intercooling! You can get used, running OM617 engines for around $500 and it's fully mechanical so there's no ECU or electrical companents to worry about. There's a huge community supporting these engines and cars, plus parts availability is excellent and inexpensive.

    So the numbers for a bio-diesel conversion look very good, especially since B100 bio-diesel is fully compatible with petroleum diesel. And that means not getting stuck away from your fuel supply, as you can tank up with pump diesel and be just fine no matter how much bio-diesel is in the tank.

    We start getting the bio-diesel processing equipment together this weekend, and will hopefully have a Mercedes 300D by month end. So I'll post info along the way as we learn how viable the idea really is.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_Black
    Converting to flex-fuel, or E85, appears to be more difficult than going pure ethanol. With the pure ethanol you just ensure your fuel pump and system is compatible and upgrade as needed (viton o-rings, improved pump, stainless rail) and get injectors that flow about 30% more fuel. Reset the ECU and adjust from there. With flex-fuel the ECU needs to easily figure out and adjust if you're running E85, gas or a blend.
    Most new vehicles (ie mid 90's + and definitely OBDII systems) can adjust to the blended fuel automatically by reading the O2 sensors. The vehicles I have run or directly seen run various blends of ethanol have adapted fine. AFOAF reported his Ford ranger set a code running E85...don't remember the specific code, but it reportedly had something to do with the fact that the long term fuel trim was maxed out and the computer didn't like that. But the ECU was still easily responding to the change in fuel, though Larger injectors, or a boost in fuel pressure would help cure the issue.

    I believe the two main issues with running straight ethanol are low volatility/cold starting issues and the fact that our government (US) would rather poison you to death rather than have you skip out on taxes on a fifth of booze - hence denaturing. Regular gasoline added to the ethanol in small amounts solves both of these issues very nicely and relatively cheaply.

    I have read that most car manufacturers that make any FFV's offer it as a no cost option. Based on that, I have to wonder just how much they are changing on the fuel systems to cope with ethanol. Bigger injectors - probably, change in ECU programming - probably, stainless steel fuel system - doubtful. Next time I see a FFV locally, I will have to climb under it and see what the tank looks like!

  9. #9
    I went to brasil last month and was told that ALL the gas at the pump contain ethanol.In other words you can't buy uncut fuel in Brasil at the pump!
    This is okay over there because even in the wintertime the temp. stays high enough never to give any problems even when running on 100% ethanol.
    What's really remarkable is that I saw a lot of cars getting converted to run on CNG! (compressed natural gas)
    VX : CLOSEST THING TO A CONCEPT CAR!

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