ak-47 or ar-15?

[WormGod]

I don't know, the way folks in Washington are talking I'd worry about having to turn it in for less than I paid for it sometime in the future. They just did a voluntary cash for guns thing in LA and something like 2,000 people showed up. Want to guess how long it will take the feds to try the same thing but make it mandatory? They may never be successful, but you never know...

Which would work in the most fantastic manner ever. I can just see the criminals with unregistered firearms lining up to turn their weapons into the Fed too.

Not trying to change subject.

Anyways, also know that the AR platform is endless when it comes to modification. Whether it be mechanical or aesthetic, the sky is the limit.

[Scott Larson]

When it comes to cheap and reliable, you can't beat an AK47. Piston powered and damn-near impossible to jam. 7.62x39 ammo is very cheap and abundant and I have found with my AK that it is quite accurate too, my Russian SKS takes that accuracy up a notch. Now my Colt AR is no slouch but it cost three times more and can be finicky to fowling due to it's direct impingement gas system. 5.56 ammo also is not as cheap as the 7.62. As others have said though, it is the king of customizable weapons, you can turn it into almost anything! Obviously, personal preference will play a key role in most peoples decision but if I were to choose between the two for a bug out weapon, I'd go with the AK. As for a long-range weapon, I'll go with my Springfield National Match M1A (M14) in 308. I'd go up against almost anyone with that one. (Ok, a Barrett 50 would smoke me!) Just my two cents and I'd like some change back please...

[vt_maverick]

Which would work in the most fantastic manner ever. I can just see the criminals with unregistered firearms lining up to turn their weapons into the Fed too.

I think you'd be surprised. The cops said a huge percentage of those guns in LA were unregistered - it was an amnesty, "no questions asked" event. Keep in mind a lot of those unregistered firearms started out as legal gun sales but were traded/lost/stolen along the way. Cut off the supply of new weapons, buy back existing weapons, and you at least lower the number of available mass shooting devices out there.

There is obviously no perfect solution to the problem so it will be interesting what pieces and parts being thrown out by gun control advocates and gun rights groups will be welded into a policy.

[Ldub]

Anyways, also know that the AR platform is endless when it comes to modification. Whether it be mechanical or aesthetic, the sky is the limit.

Yep...they don't call em' the "Barbie Doll for grown up men" for nuth'n...

[Ldub]

Also, in case anyone is a little fuzzy on the "facts"...

[bartmanS4]

AR looks cool but if I wanted something to save my life no thanks. Ever wonder why it has a forward assist lever? Cause it jams unless it and it's ammo are clean. AK doesn't have as tight of tolerances so is a little less accurate but won't jam up. I used to carry an M16 A1 and an A2, expensive junk if you ask me. They may have gotten better but the still have a forward assist!

[spaceCADETzoom]

I hate being a know it all...but theres a lot of misinformation being thrown around becaue of what one sees on the history channel. From extensive experience, the AK is just as capable of failure if used by idiots who dont maintain their rifles. I literally got back from training Afghans four weeks ago. You know whats among the most reliable weapons in such places with widespread disrespect of basic rifleman maintenence and cleaning? Lee Enfields.

AFghan Army are armed with M16s. Thier level of jamming decreases with training, and is on par with those with AKs, that the national police are largely armed with. Reliability ismore tied to training than the weapon when it comes to between ak/m16.

As for a forward assist...you realize the ak's forward assist is the fixed charging handle right? The ar15 has a separate one because its charging handle it non reciprocating. Again, from psonal experience, the "forrward assist" is used by untrained riflemen in firefights because they dont know how to clean weapons...I have seen guys kick the Ak handle to chamber or extract. If youve been in the Army, you remember SPORTS, the fwd assist for the m16 is one of those things that is not needed, but for super redundancy. I make no claims to have been in Vietnam...but theM4 is a rock solid weapon. Ive never fired an m16a1 in combat, but i have trained with them. I can tell you reliabilty variables lie with Blanks/bfas, magazines, and (from second hand reading) the different cartridges and terrible training issues they had when the a1 ws first fielded...fifty years ago. Its a different world. Unscientific survey, again, 90% of ftf in the Ar15 is user lack of maintenence. Theres a reason such problems are more widespread (read: virtually confined to) the non-combat personnel...

I love both AK and ar15s for personal use. But, if this were SHTF, as some of you are getting at, think for a minite and realize ar15 parts will be more available, and the common platform with government arms (and ammo) is infinitely more useful than anything the ak would offer... Effective fighting forces,be they insurgents or jackbooted thugs, have weapon uniformity for a reason.

And sorry for the atrocious typos, this i on the ipad, too lazy to get to a pc right now

[spaceCADETzoom]

Oh, and if there was question, iraqi and afghan army are fielding brand new FN M16a2 (maybe a3s as well, i don,t remember; either way, they're sticking to iron sights). Just for clarification, they're not vietnam surplus a1s that are fifty years old (those are still used in ROTC, at least as of 6 years ago, hence my only working familiarity with them). They're literally fresh from the box, newer than what the non-combat US Military have slung on super-FOBs (arguably even better maintained). As for the US Army's M4 carbines--the only rifle I've fired in anger. It may as well be a wholly different gun than the a1.

[bartmanS4]

I remember SPORTS LOL! That brings back memories. It always seemed strange to me that they never instructed us to (in my case) to stop with the SPORTS once the jam was cleared. For example most (if not all) jams I experienced were when the round lodged diagonally between the bolt and the chamber as it was fed. The tip of the round would jam against the locking grooves of the chamber (if that makes sense) and the bolt as it slid forward would not have enough umph to push it past that. If I slapped the mag that would allow the round to clear the mag and the bolt would slide home and lock. So instead of SPORTS I would OSS observe, slap, squeeze and this worked almost every time. Come to think of it as I describe this the root cause could have been the mag. This was only in training as I was never in combat and weapons were definitely clean. I've also heard that ammo design may have played a part.
Junk may be too strong a word but I do think the AR is over-engineered and tolerances too tight for a general issue troop weapon. Compare that to the cheaply made mass produced AK that doesn't need the same level of training and maintenance to function effectively.
I think a good analogy would be that Ford may have a racing team but you wouldn't use their racing vehicles for your fleet vehicles. As for SHTF? I'd rather have a shotgun for close in zombie eradication and a sniper rifle for more distant interaction.
BTW I currently have none of the weapons mentioned so everything salted please. My locker only contains a Mini14, SKS, 1911, and a Mustang so what the heck do I know LOL!
Remember:
Rule #1 Cardio

[spaceCADETzoom]

cheaply made mass produced AK that doesn't need the same level of training and maintenance to function effectively.

But that's just the thing. That's a myth. The AK fails just as much as the AR15 if it's used by an incompetent user. I believe this myth continues becaue we like labeling our enemies mere rubes. "Evil soviets and vc are peasant conscripts who cant maintain weapons..." And the opposite as well: "the m16 is junk because we have the best military men in the world, it can't possibly be their lack of maintenence"

(btw, youre right about the mags. Most of the ftf can be attributable to follower tilt, weak springs, etc; we have new tan followers, a change from the last 50 years, that combat this, and the widespread use of aftermarket, personal purchase magazines is widespread. Many, including myself, swear by mags like magpul pmags).

But I think theres a reason ar15s are practically the only rifles used in the action shooting sports. Its the only thing accurate enough for the stages and the customizablity. Using that apt Ford analogy, why would any driver choose that fleet car over the purpose built race car? It's obvious if you want to go to the supermarket and dont like cars, youd lean to the taurus or whatever ford sends to rentacar compaines nowadays. But if you're trying to race? If you're a prfessional race car driver (which I hope you'd equate to the professional US military, or even someone serious about actually firing their rifle in anger)? The idea of SHTF seems even more important than race car driving... Why would one go for less accurate and no Parts commanilty when ones life concievably depended on it? This is not to mention the "men,s Barbie" fact that the Ar15 market is the largest in the industry....dont like .223? get .50 beowulf, .300 blk, even 7.62x39 uppers. Buy into the direct impingement fallacy? Go get a piston upper...they even have longstroke AK copies. Want a 10in SBr? 18inch SPR? 24 in varmint rifle? It's yours. You simply cant do that on the AK platform. Want somethig different than what you bought? You need to buy another gun. For the Ar15, on the other hand, you can spend as little as 50 bucks and have smething different than younstarted with.

I do believe every collection needs at least one AK. But with so many criteria, I don't see it being your first choice. Dependable 762x39? The SKS is a better buy as far as price and ruggedness. Not to mention some plausible future where mags are verbotten, 10 round stripper clips and the ability top off are as effecient and maybe even moreso than detachable mags.

[eblank]

All I have to add to this is, Good luck finding one! All of the shops around me are all sold out of pretty much any "black" rifle or home defense shotgun. I've been wanting an AR but not exactly spewing money at the moment, so I tried buying some 30 round mags (cuz I figure those are the most likely to be banned) and they're sold out EVERYWHERE, and that was in december...

[Ldub]

All I have to add to this is, Good luck finding one! All of the shops around me are all sold out of pretty much any "black" rifle or home defense shotgun. I've been wanting an AR but not exactly spewing money at the moment, so I tried buying some 30 round mags (cuz I figure those are the most likely to be banned) and they're sold out EVERYWHERE, and that was in december...

Yeh dat..

Though what I saw yesterday might sway the OP's opinion.

I stopped by my local outdoor sports store just to see what they had...AR anything? nada...

But they DID have 30 rd banana mags AND some drum mags...both for AK's

Of course they were hideously priced. (IIRC, the drums were around $170-180)

[Scott Larson]

Can't help but notice that the brand name "Bushmaster" has become synonymous within the media for "Instrument of death and destruction!" I kinda wonder how the fine folks at Bushmaster feel about that? They say that any publicity is good publicity but still... As for the AK vs AR debate, I stand by what I said; one third the price and more reliable to boot in the real world. Lee-Enfields? I've got three of 'em. A No.1 Mk.III, a No.4 Mk.I and a No.5 Mk.I "Jungle Carbine", all fine weapons but I wouldn't care to carry one into battle...

[JHarris1385]

There seems to be an ever growing market of tactical pistols in the .22lr caliber.

From the Halo-like ridiculous US Firearms Zip
http://www.usfirearms.com/

To
Carl Walther IWI UZI
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=325645229



I do not have an AR or AK but have been reading this thread to learn more. I have always wanted one and now it seems I might need to fulfill that want sooner than later.

[spaceCADETzoom]

Well, I'd like to think Afghanistan the worst the "real world" has to offer. And there are still Lee Enfields from wwi in use to good effect. Hand to heart, guys...the mythical reliabilty of the AK is overblown. And if youre taling a "real world" with people who have not LIVED with their rifles as trained riflemen, I guarntee the enfield would serve you better than any self-loading rifle. Think of it this way: what would you consider more idiot proof and reliable, a pump shotgun or an autoloading shotgun? Which would you give to your trusted neighbor, who's maybe not as well versed in guns, in a SHTF situation? And price? before the current hysteria, an ar15 could be had for $600. A good Ak is more than that. Unless youre talking a WASR...in which case I laugh at your idea of "reliable."