Some thoughts/suggestions regarding the Moab VX ONLY run....

[vt_maverick]

I would say staying at the Stoop is critical then. Most days decisions on start times didn't get made until late at night or even a few minutes before leaving. If you're not staying there it can be frustrating, although it's obviously more important to me than it would be to most because of the girls. We did a lot of sitting around and waiting, both at the Stoop and at the hotel.

Why the insistence on having little to no organization? It seems so trivial and far less about legalities than about maintaining some sort of adhoc culture.

[Triathlete]

I wasn't disagreeing so much as giving a bit of history to how it got to this point Ash.
I think it would be nice to maybe have a set time/place to meet and come up with the next days game plan then everyone could go their marry ways if they have plans other than sitting around the stoop all night.

[MSHardeman]

I tend to agree with getting rid of the "VX Only" run. That started out with Todd or Tone (don't remember which) when ZuZoo was an official event and we had a bunch of other Isuzu's show up (we used to have to sign up for trails online before ever getting to Moab). It gave us some time to spend together with other VX geeks and find out what our little trucks/cars (whatever) were capable of.

Now that ZuZoo is defunct there really aren't many other Isuzu's that show up any more, other than the die hards like Big Swede (Steve), Gizmo (Dave) and a couple of others. The whole ZuZoo has become one big VX run now.

I do agree with a newbie/stock run on Tuesday to help introduce others to the joys of offroading and what the VX's are capable of. I know my first VX only run, with Todd as trail leader, was an eye opening experience for me and it was great to see that many VX's in one place at one time.

As for how to set up trails, leaders and times....that I'm not sure how to solve. I understand that if you aren't staying at The Stoop it would be difficult to find out what is going on unless you have someone who you know you want to wheel with and they stay at The Stoop to figure out what is going on. It did seem to work well, enough, this year with getting the right people together with the right trail leaders, going to the right trails. Even if you aren't at The Stoop at night your best bet would be to show up at 8am and start asking what's going on. Just about all of the groups left The Stoop at 9am and sort of formed up that morning. I know I did two trails by just milling around in the morning and asking who was doing what, and if they would mind if I tagged along.

[pbkid]

Well, I can see both sides of the coin here. It is nice to have a 'spur of the moment' so that we can spend stoop time conversing....but to be honest, thats not what the lack of organization is about. I hope you dont take my honesty here as egotism or elitism.
For guys that want to do more 'gnarly' or aggressive trails, it can commonly be difficult to explain to others that their vehicle, or driving skills are not yet experienced enough to complete these trails. Yes, the VX will get through just about every trail there, but sometimes if the VX isnt equiped enough, it can be difficult and damaging.
I'm not saying you were in this group, because I, unfortunately, did not get to catch a trail with you. But, historically, there has been new guys that dont understand the scope of difficulty and damage these trails can do.

Obviously, it just needs to be explained, but you dont want to offend a first timer, ya know?

Clearly, I lean more towards the same side as you, ashley. It would be great to have some form of organization, because it really sucks to not be able to get moving towards the trail until 10 or 11 am, that really doesnt work well if you want to do any kind of serious trail, or know whats going on.

I can tell you that it was extremely frustrating for me this year and I was only there for 3 days.
Ash, generally, there are 4 or 5 guys who are just kinda the experienced guys of the group and they just say, im headed to mcdonalds at 8 am, whoever wants to run gold bar rim, meet there, we leave at 8:15.

This next year, I'm going back to that approach again. I dont really consider myself an experienced wheeler. Especially when you look at guys that have been there for 10+ years. But apparently the majority of the guys who lead these trails weren't there, or not wanting to lead them. So I will try my best to take a lead spot, but dont be angry if I take us down a few wrong turns.

Again, i hope it doesnt seem elitist, but.... you asked

[pbkid]

Now, also understand that there are MANY guys in moab who know and understand that they dont want to beat up their vehicle, and they understand as well which trail leaders do easier stuff, and which ones challenge themselves.

But, thats a hard thing to explain to a first timer, I think because when they do the first day and they see the capabilities of their little VX, they want to see it do more and more.... until something breaks, then its really a bummer. So, I dont want to lead someone into something where they are going to break their vehicle, and not be able to get home without spending $$$$$$$$$$.

I think mark hit the nail on the head. I think the best advise for a first timer might be to ask around and see which trail leader they should be following that does a trail at their skill level. Good advise for the upcoming years (thanks ash)

[Gizmo42]

I did that when I started, didnt know anybody at all. I asked around in the evening and the morning who was doing what and if they thought my truck could do it.

There havent been any organized trails or leaders (except vx run) since I've been going. It all seems to work out fine. Show up at the stoop at night and see whats going on, a lot of ppl decide by then what they are going to do. And show up before 9am and ask around again, might find a trail you would rather do instead.

One change I will be making for any trails I lead, I will not be waiting around. Everyone should be ready by the time I am or they miss it. You should know when you get back the previous day if you need gas and food, do it then.

[Triathlete]

but dont be angry if I take us down a few wrong turns.

Or the wrong trail all together!

[Dumke]

... or driving skills are not yet experienced enough to complete these trails. Yes, the VX will get through just about every trail there, but sometimes if the VX isnt equiped enough, it can be difficult and damaging.
.... But, historically, there has been new guys that dont understand the scope of difficulty and damage these trails can do.

Um note to self its really hard doing Cliffhanger in 2wd

Again, i hope it doesnt seem elitist, but.... you asked

You are forgiven

Now, also understand that there are MANY guys in moab who know and understand that they dont want to beat up their vehicle....

.... until something breaks, then its really a bummer. So, I dont want to lead someone into something where they are going to break their vehicle, and not be able to get home without spending $$$$$$$$$$.

Hmmm I knew I shouldnt have had Kenny behind me... Twice now

Or the wrong trail all together!

HAHA x 2

[Dumke]

I do agree that the VX only run should be retired. I would also like to suggest that next year we label it "Beginners run"... If you haven't done a trail or want a easy trail to freshen up on your wheeling then by all means. I still think it should be voted on with whatever trail, leader and caboose that wants to volunteer. I agree with Giz on leaving on time. Whoever is going on a trail if you cant make a effort to show up then you may/will get left behind. Some trails take "longer than expected" and no one wants to get back at to the Stoop too late . This was the first year I filled up with gas the night before and what a difference it made because I wasn't as rushed in the morning. Another reason I like the idea of retiring it, because too many vehicles on one trail makes for a "even longer" day.

Ashley having kids myself I understand how organization is needed. Also not staying at the Stoop can make it some what difficult figuring out what tomorrows plans are. Hey boss man is there any way to make a "Sticky thread" for that week on the boards? That way it can be posted what run is being done that day and who is leading it.

[BigSwede]

One of the reasons that Todd always kept the trail he picked for the VX run off of the interweb was that the BLM will sometimes go looking on the internet for groups that are trying to skirt the insurance requirements. Then they will show up and hammer somebody with fines and such. This is why trail runs are organized "ad hoc" these days.

Perhaps it would be possible to set a time in the evening for sort of a meeting of the minds to pick trails for the next day, so folks with other priorities (such as kids) don't have to wait around for hours.

Or better yet, assign someone who is going to hang out at the stoop as your proxy and have them call you with the scoop when it becomes known...

[vt_maverick]

I did a good bit of clunking on Fins and Things so I knew after day one that I wanted to stay on the "bunny" trails. No worries about overachieving here.

I think all that's needed are deadlines for decisions to be made and runs to start (as Gizmo42 suggested). Sue was my proxy at the Stoop but even she didn't know what was going on until really late at night or fairly late the next morning. Tuesday went great, but on Wednesday I got a phone call saying we were leaving in an hour I think, and then it was 3 hours after that before we actually left. And then Thursday morning I got a phone call saying we were leaving in 15 minutes (which did actually happen). If I did want to go (I had already decided to give the girls the day off because they were exhausted) packing up the kids, loading the cooler in the car, and driving over takes at least that long, so I probably would have missed the run anyway. Again I realize that's fairly unique to my situation and it wouldn't be a problem for most.

Maybe decide on at least the novice trail and leader/tail each evening by 9 (gives time for everyone to grab dinner and then discuss on the Stoop) and then plan to leave each day at 9? I agree there's no need to publish the trail schedule online if you have a proxy at the Stoop. As long as a decision is made far enough in advance to let off-siters know I think you're good to go.

[RickOKC]

Here are some of my rambling thoughts:

As a newbie, changing the name from "VX Only" to "newbie run" doesn't bother me. Heck, I told someone that I regretted not riding along with someone else before I went off road for the first time ever. (I had no clue what I was doing.)

"VX only" - who cares. Trucks are trucks but people are people. Over the last couple years, I could have joined any of a half dozen local clubs and visited trails here in-state before I went to Moab. But, I wanted to meet everyone from THIS group. It's the people, not the vehicle as far as I'm concerned.

I noticed the skill levels splintering off - and took no offense to that at all. I also saw other people asking more experienced members, "Should I pass on this run?" due to a lack of modifications / skill levels. I didn't get any indication that anyone was offended. Instead I saw an appreciation for the advice and guidance. I doubt I'm the only newbie who would want to feel like we're holding people back. But... it would definitely be appreciated if some experienced people would still help guide us noobs from time to time.

Having vague plans for the next day's run(s) doesn't bother me at all because I'M ON VACATION and kinda appreciate a lack of structure. I learned quickly that the only thing I really needed was to show up with lunch, fuel and be at the stoop before 8 or 9am. Plans change - I was in a line for one trail Wednesday, then backed out so I could go on a different run that seemed more appealing right before that original group left.

I loved getting photos of a BIG group of VXs lined up on a trail, but immediately learned how big groups take a long, looong time. Maybe it would be better to split them up and leave after 1-2 hour gap?

[VX crazy]

Another thing the new people may not realize is if we have so many people we need a permit, which is why Todd the last several years kept it on the downlow........and with all the same vehicles we wouldn't be able to fib our way out of it.

[Ldub]

But, I wanted to meet everyone from THIS group. It's the people, not the vehicle as far as I'm concerned.

I noticed the skill levels splintering off - and took no offense to that at all. I also saw other people asking more experienced members, "Should I pass on this run?" due to a lack of modifications / skill levels. I didn't get any indication that anyone was offended. Instead I saw an appreciation for the advice and guidance. I doubt I'm the only newbie who would want to feel like we're holding people back. But... it would definitely be appreciated if some experienced people would still help guide us noobs from time to time.

Having vague plans for the next day's run(s) doesn't bother me at all because I'M ON VACATION and kinda appreciate a lack of structure. I learned quickly that the only thing I really needed was to show up with lunch, fuel and be at the stoop before 8 or 9am. Plans change - I was in a line for one trail Wednesday, then backed out so I could go on a different run that seemed more appealing right before that original group left.

I loved getting photos of a BIG group of VXs lined up on a trail, but immediately learned how big groups take a long, looong time. Maybe it would be better to split them up and leave after 1-2 hour gap?

I mean this as no offence to you Ashley, I very much enjoyed meeting you & the fam... GREAT people...


But Rick has the absolute right attitude for Moab...flexibility is key...being able to roll with what comes, is a real handy skill set to have when there is, by design, very little structure.

I also agree, some of us old timers should be trying harder to mentor the first timers...
And I will try to do better next year...
I'm FAR from trail leader material, (I get lost too easily), but I'm a helluva tail gunn'r...

On the other side of that coin...I'm on vacation too, & the last thing I need, is for a bunch of people to be disappointed in me because I'm too hung to wheel...that'd be a bummer man......

[VX crazy]

I mean this as no offence to you Ashley, I very much enjoyed meeting you & the fam... GREAT people...


But Rick has the absolute right attitude for Moab...flexibility is key...being able to roll with what comes, is a real handy skill set to have when there is, by design, very little structure.

I also agree, some of us old timers should be trying harder to mentor the first timers...
And I will try to do better next year...
I'm FAR from trail leader material, (I get lost too easily), but I'm a helluva tail gunn'r...

On the other side of that coin...I'm on vacation too, & the last thing I need, is for a bunch of people to be disappointed in me because I'm too hung to wheel...that'd be a bummer man......

Too hung to wheel?? Wow.....gotta see that!