Taxes!

[Marlin]

IIRC, the current poverty percentage has held steady at 14% for several decades. I believe that number only applies to registered US citizens. Does it take into account the non-legals?I still contend that programs aimed at the poor pale in comparison to the problems of the elderly, SS and Medicare. You are nibbling at the edges.
These edges I am nibbling at are going to become the entire pie here in about 30 years. Perhaps its time to not plan ahead vice knee jerking when its too late.


I don't get your math. Total bail out plus stimulus is $4.6T, of which about $2.6 has been recovered as it was provided in the way of temp loans. Even if I assume ALL of it was a total give away/loss, that adds up to $15K per person, but I think $6,500 is more realistic. Not a trivial amount, but perhaps you can elaborate on how you achieve a result 30 times the one my calculator is giving me.
You are right, I used 10^15 vice 10^12. I used 136 million tax returns, based on the 2008 data on the IRS site. That was the newest they had.
My view on the bailouts: I am worried about the moral hazard of private profit with public risk, but confess that the issue is so complex and beyond my limited understanding of the economics involved. After some discussions with a number of very smart and conservative people connected in some way to the issues, I was surprised by their vehement support for the bailouts as absolutely necessary in a time of total crisis in order to avert global economic meltdown, despite their otherwise fiscal conservative nature.
My concern is, we had to put down trillions to keep these companies alive, because they are too big to fail. Yet they are still too big to fail, as a matter of fact, some of them got even bigger. What happens next time? I guess we are the safety net for big companies? Did we learn anything?
As to the stimulus, I am agnostic. I just don't know. I have tried to understand some of the principles involved, but economics written by economists bores the tears out of me, and I have had to get it second hand from those who can make it accessible. Suffice to say that I have enough doubt about the issues to respect the Keynesians that insist that deficit spending during recession is a rational course, but worry very much that we will lack the maturity to offset it with surpluses during boom times. I think the safest bet is that whatever long term fiscal package that we end up with, it does not entail big cuts or tax increases until 2013 so as not to further endanger the very fragile recovery.

*sigh*, I too get lost in the myriad of "sciences" involved. I sometimes look at a dollar bill, and realize that it is really worth nothing. At the end of the day, it has no value. Its much the same as a Babe Ruth rookie card. Beckett can say its worth 1 million dollars, but its really only worth what someone will pay for it. That is all anything is ever worth. So what happens if the world stops accepting the dollar bill? We keep printing more, that makes it worth even less. How is printing more money the solution? Spending money we don't have only postpones the inevitable.

I actually have to go back to work tomorrow,so I will have much less time to get on here than I did the last few days I know we have jumped around a lot, but it gave me something to do, something that is free. It also prevents me from doing something dumb to the RS, like drilling holes in the roof for a roof rack.

[djvx]

Marlin, you are a great American and I would stand by you in battle anyday to save this Country from these vermin who are trying to destroy it.

[Marlin]

Well, since its xmas eve, we are on a "light duty" holiday routine. (for those unaware, I am on deployment on my way to the Gulf for "wars" that have nothing to do with us) I reread this entire thread. Kind of neat to see some of the thoughts coming true. Riots around the world, violence nigh here in our own land.
Batten down the hatches indeed.

[bearandbee]

Ron Paul....ron Paul.....ron Paul!

[Y33TREKker]

...Kind of neat to see some of the thoughts coming true. Riots around the world, violence nigh here in our own land.
Batten down the hatches indeed.

Kind of neat? Wars that have nothing to do with us? Maybe it's just me, but I have to say that hearing those kinds of statements expressed by a member of my nations' military doesn't necessarily instill confidence.

[Marlin]

It is neat, things we argued about a long time ago are now coming true. Tell me how any of these wars have anything to do with us. That is why Ron Paul has a lot of support in the military. Just because I am active duty does not mean I have to believe in every operation we undertake. As a matter of fact, the higher your rank, the more you should question the orders, after all, my oath says I am sworn to defend the Constitution as well. Didn't see empire building or world policing anywhere in there....

[fuzzy]

We, as military professionals, must be detached from the politics of the day that call upon us to do their bidding. We can't take sides and when we do, the only honorable thing is to resign or retire from service. You folks (yes, you... we're the other 1%) are the ones responsible for putting us in this position. You decide to send us to war by your vote and decide not to pay for those wars by your vote. We are both cynically amused and outright frustrated that it is taking you so long to learn the lesson that sacrifice is required of the entire nation to engage in warfare. An all-volunteer force does not abdicate you from your responsibility to contribute to the cause. That means giving yourself a decade-long tax cut while we fight 2+ wars is outrageous to us. We'll do the fighting (over and over again until we're done, dead, or incapacitated), but you'll need to cut spending AND raise revenue in order to pay us, equip us, sustain us... and to take care of our long-term needs after those wars are over. That's the deal for a volunteer force. Don't like it? Reinstate the draft. "Thank you for your service" is a nice gesture, but what we really want is the nation to honor its commitment to us and pay its bills (with cash, not credit cards).

Am I feeling smug, self-righteous, and preachy? Yep. And that's probably because I've decided to retire and take a side.

[Marlin]

Well said Fuzzy. As a matter of fact, if you had service members not questioning what we are doing, I would be scared, especially the senior ones that have some time on the pond. Are we supposed to be nothing more than robots? Machines trained to kill without reason? I think not, which is why retirement is looking more and more appealing. Our politicians are out of control, and our civilians are even more so for not caring. Am I cynical, you betcha, I see people whining about having to piss in a cup to get free money in Florida, yet they have no problem with double deployments for service members in support of a cause that was finished years ago.

[Y33TREKker]

It was just that your comments could be interpreted in more ways than one Marlin. One way it could have been interpreted was that you thought it was "kind of neat" that riots were occurring around the world. As a member of the military after all, it has to be admitted that riots around the world translates into possible job security for you.

And to think that the wars in question in the gulf have nothing to do with "us" to me personally seems to be completely ignoring past U.S. administration and/or business policies and actions that have domino'd into the situations that have played a part in those very same wars today. If members of the military are not conscious of those realities and take that ignorance into the "homelands" of the people who live there, it becomes no wonder why people in various other parts of the world hate us at this point. It's just another version of the "think global, act local" philosophy.

As for the people of the U.S. voting for war, it's always been my understanding that is the responsibility of congress. But considering that government in general seems to be more for itself and big business special interests these days (at the expense of the 99%), it becomes a very convenient rationalization for people who have "volunteered" to suck on their individual portion of that government teet (as a member of the military) as they conveniently overlook what their particular job title actually means on a personal conscientious level in the "homelands" of others.

So before you two continue impugning the honor of others to justify your own decisions and current situations, you might want to stop and consider for a moment that there are those who actually questioned the military on a pragmatic level regarding some of the things it represents (besides what is promoted in their tv commercials) BEFORE making the decision to join so as not to have to face the possibility of later deciding they'd had enough and only THEN resigning as the only "honorable" thing to do.

[fuzzy]

Y33TREKker added to ignore list for being a troll.

[Ldub]

Y33TREKker added to ignore list for being a troll.

you site supporters just don't understand him...

[Y33TREKker]

Y33TREKker added to ignore list for being a troll.

you site supporters just don't understand him...

Ironic and I must say excessively convenient how you two can imply a lack of understanding by others while at the same time apparently feeling no need to even attempt to do so yourself...in dub's case especially since the topic he felt it necessary to bring up (even though it has nothing to do with the current topic of discussion) has been explained to him ad nauseum.

The same principle, I suspect, that makes the troubles around the world Marlin was originally discussing so perpetual in nature.

[crager34]

Good read.

Seriously.

[VXR]

you site supporters just don't understand him...

hope it did not take you all day to think of that one