Electric cars a bad idea?

[Bob Barker]

What are people going to do with the batteries after they "die" in all the electric cars? Aren't those full of really nasty stuff?

[RickOKC]

Well, I'm all for electric vehicles - more gas for ME! Seriously though, as much as I am a fan of internal combustion, change doesn't scare me so I've also been drooling over the idea of something like a Tesla S sedan ever since I first heard about it. (Wow, that thing is gorgeous!) I think I would enjoy the heck out of something like that every bit as much as I enjoy my VX & my Mustang GT.

I'm a cynic, too, so I wouldn't be surprised to find myself soon paying a more in gasoline taxes ("we have to offset the lost revenue")… and also start paying more in electricity taxes to offset that (thereby subsidizing those with electric cars when I don't yet own one.)

I have to call foul on the Prius vs. Deville comparison. Instead of talking about the weight of a new "eco-warrior" compact car vs. a 13-year-old large sized boat, I think comparing the 2010 Lotus Elise to the 2010 Tesla Roadster is much more fair and illustrates the spirit of the original comment. The Tesla's weight is 2,690 lbs and it is based on the 1,984 lb Lotus. Compare function-to-function fairly and, until technology catches up, which type of vehicle is really the heaviest? 2011 Ford Escape: 3,299 lbs / 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid: 3,669 lbs. Sorry, there may be other vehicles that confirm batteries make 'em heavier or could contradict that - I just picked the first two examples that came to mind.

(source: Edmunds.com; all weights listed above are curb weights)

[Marlin]

I have to call foul on the Prius vs. Deville comparison. Instead of talking about the weight of a new "eco-warrior" compact car vs. a 13-year-old large sized boat, I think comparing the 2010 Lotus Elise to the 2010 Tesla Roadster is much more fair and illustrates the spirit of the original comment. The Tesla's weight is 2,690 lbs and it is based on the 1,984 lb Lotus. Compare function-to-function fairly and, until technology catches up, which type of vehicle is really the heaviest. 2011 Ford Escape: 3,299 lbs / 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid: 3,669 lbs. Sorry, there may be other vehicles that confirm batteries make 'em heavier or could contradict that - I just picked the first two examples that came to mind.

(source: Edmunds.com; all weights listed above are curb weights)

Good point, someone driving an deville is not likely to drop 30k on any vehicle, lot less some tiny electric car. Never thought of that approach...

[pbkid]

I have to call foul on the Prius vs. Deville comparison. Instead of talking about the weight of a new "eco-warrior" compact car vs. a 13-year-old large sized boat, I think comparing the 2010 Lotus Elise to the 2010 Tesla Roadster is much more fair and illustrates the spirit of the original comment. The Tesla's weight is 2,690 lbs and it is based on the 1,984 lb Lotus. Compare function-to-function fairly and, until technology catches up, which type of vehicle is really the heaviest? 2011 Ford Escape: 3,299 lbs / 2011 Ford Escape Hybrid: 3,669 lbs. Sorry, there may be other vehicles that confirm batteries make 'em heavier or could contradict that - I just picked the first two examples that came to mind.

(source: Edmunds.com; all weights listed above are curb weights)

rick-
interesting comparison. and yes, logically your comparison makes sense. I was simply working off chris' statement that there is no road damage difference between a prius and a 'gas guzzling V8'.... so, i was purely comparing vehicles with V8's.....
find me a 'commonly' used V8 vehicle that weighs less than a prius... or even better, my dads CRX (1,600 lb curb) (and he pulls over 42 mpg)

and yes, i completely agree with you, if we can compare any vehicle hybrid vs. conventional.
tahoe hybrid - 7,100 lbs
lotus elise - 2,562 lbs

[IndianaVX]

It's hard to type Full thoughts on this phone, but following on marlins line,
I haven't checked lately, but I don't think there are permits being allowed for any nuke plants in the U.S.
The same goes for hydro power due to some regulation about daming rivers.
And the coal gassification plants which are state of the art plants will never conform to the new regulations being put on them almost weekly.
Even windmills have generators on them for when the wind isn't blowing and those generators run on fossil fuels.

[Marlin]

It's hard to type Full thoughts on this phone, but following on marlins line,
I haven't checked lately, but I don't think there are permits being allowed for any nuke plants in the U.S.

There are several nuke plants in construction right now, scheduled to come on line 2017-2020 time frame. I have a very high interest in this since its what I do for a living The plants are already scouting. They are hitting us up more than 1 year before our Navy contracts expire and hiring for plants not even up yet. Offer to buy our houses, pay for our moves, HUGE signing bonuses. Starting salary for a RO (reactor operator) is 80K plus overtime. They guarantee at least 10 hours overtime a week. We are starting in 6 figures without a degree! That is WAY more than I make in the Navy, and the civilian job is MUCH easier and they never ask you to leave your family for months at a time. Plus I don't have to live in San Diego or Norfolk, which are two of 4 choices I have in the Navy. Those places suck.
I will have my degree in a few months, so my salary will be even better. Right now, there are very few programs out there to drive high school graduates into the nuclear field, so a vast majority or ex-navy nukes.
So with all this job availability, maybe I can afford to buy some POS hybrid. Just to keep it on topic.

[Dmitrikr]

well, talking hybrids fuel economy 2-3L per 100 km compared to same size sedan. so tell me how many kilometers I have to put on hybrid - just to cover up 6 grand difference in price for hybrid. Plus to maintain hybrids( electrics) cost more than regular car.
BUT! driving lexus 600h - is fun! )) Now I have to win lottery to buy one))

[Marlin]

well, talking hybrids fuel economy 2-3L per 100 km compared to same size sedan. so tell me how many kilometers I have to put on hybrid - just to cover up 6 grand difference in price for hybrid. Plus to maintain hybrids( electrics) cost more than regular car.
BUT! driving lexus 600h - is fun! )) Now I have to win lottery to buy one))

Per edmunds, 4-6 years at 15k miles per year and 2.75 a gallon for fuel. Diesels pay for themselves in 1-3 years.

[Dmitrikr]

Per edmunds, 4-6 years at 15k miles per year and 2.75 a gallon for fuel. Diesels pay for themselves in 1-3 years.

5years*15= 75k miles counting what? same price for fuel over 4-6years? No wear & tear on cars? Every one knows - battery getting old - discharges faster -needs to be recharged more often - more gas to use. gasoline engine - no wear and tear? SAME fuel consumption over 4-6 years?

[Marlin]

5years*15= 75k miles counting what? same price for fuel over 4-6years? No wear & tear on cars? Every one knows - battery getting old - discharges faster -needs to be recharged more often - more gas to use. gasoline engine - no wear and tear? SAME fuel consumption over 4-6 years?

That is assuming a constant fuel cost and mpg over the time period, and the recouping of the purchase price difference of the same model in a conventional gasoline model. It also did not include the depreciation cost, the insurance difference and so on. There just isn't enough usage data to go any further. I see where you are going with this, means more huge government sponsored facilities to recycle the fancy lithium hybrid battery packs. Instead of a tax credit on hybrids, they should have to pay a tax penalty for future recycling programs. LOL.

[crotchrocket]

I think the benifits are supposed to be for the environment arent they? and the short term fuel savings for the first wave of people buying them will be regularised with tax rises in other areas once more people have them..............Although its clear that current electric vehicles arent the way forward, hydrogen fuel cells will be powering electric cars the future. I guess its a way to get people to let go of their fossil fuel powered vehicles....

Not that i am going to get an electric car but as Jay Lenno said, if having an electric car means you can still run your petrol car on the weekends as a hobby then all the better than fazing fuel out all together

[circmand]

I think the benifits are supposed to be for the environment arent they? and the short term fuel savings for the first wave of people buying them will be regularised with tax rises in other areas once more people have them..............Although its clear that current electric vehicles arent the way forward, hydrogen fuel cells will be powering electric cars the future. I guess its a way to get people to let go of their fossil fuel powered vehicles....

Not that i am going to get an electric car but as Jay Lenno said, if having an electric car means you can still run your petrol car on the weekends as a hobby then all the better than fazing fuel out all together

1. The government allows hybrids to claim better MPG just because they are hybrids. They do not allow actual MPG
2. The cost to recharge and the enviromental damage done by the electric plants producing the electricity are not considered in government comparisons
3. If I need to make a long trip I have no desire to stop for hours to recharge when I can refuel in minutes
4. If electric cars are now as fast in real life as opposed to government allowances why do I always end of passing priuses and have never been passed by one?
5. The government allows Chevy to claim a higher trip distance than actual to push its hybrid and electric agenda. I am all for improving the performance and enviroment but you cant let the government choose winners and bias resuylts to push the agenda. Actual measurements must be used.
6. The government has yet to establish a method of handling the millions in old batteries from hybrids which beleive me are far more toxic and worse for the enviroment than gas exhaust.
7. You cant trust the enviromental protestors. They wanted Nuke power and now they protest against it. They are against pollution but burn brand new cars they do not own and cause far more enviromental damage than even a Hummer would cause in its lifetime.
8. If we are too switch to solar and wind power as the enviromental people want the entire country will need to be covered from end to end to produce enough power and god forbid we have rainy days or windless days we will have power outages all the time. And lets not forget while they want wind power they now protest that the windmills kill birds and disrupt the habitat of the animals.

Frankly we need to invent a power source that runs on the hot useless air produce by politicians and the enviromental movement. Plus Rush Limbaugh could probably power NYC on his own. We could actually just put Rush on one end of the US and Obama on the other end and Biden in the middle and never run out of power cause none of them ever shut the hell up.

[crotchrocket]

Hmmmm seamed to miss "Although its clear that current electric vehicles arent the way forward" in your whole governent conspiracy theory attack hahaha

1. The government allows hybrids to claim better MPG just because they are hybrids. They do not allow actual MPG
2. The cost to recharge and the enviromental damage done by the electric plants producing the electricity are not considered in government comparisons
3. If I need to make a long trip I have no desire to stop for hours to recharge when I can refuel in minutes
4. If electric cars are now as fast in real life as opposed to government allowances why do I always end of passing priuses and have never been passed by one?
5. The government allows Chevy to claim a higher trip distance than actual to push its hybrid and electric agenda. I am all for improving the performance and enviroment but you cant let the government choose winners and bias resuylts to push the agenda. Actual measurements must be used.
6. The government has yet to establish a method of handling the millions in old batteries from hybrids which beleive me are far more toxic and worse for the enviroment than gas exhaust.
7. You cant trust the enviromental protestors. They wanted Nuke power and now they protest against it. They are against pollution but burn brand new cars they do not own and cause far more enviromental damage than even a Hummer would cause in its lifetime.
8. If we are too switch to solar and wind power as the enviromental people want the entire country will need to be covered from end to end to produce enough power and god forbid we have rainy days or windless days we will have power outages all the time. And lets not forget while they want wind power they now protest that the windmills kill birds and disrupt the habitat of the animals.

Frankly we need to invent a power source that runs on the hot useless air produce by politicians and the enviromental movement. Plus Rush Limbaugh could probably power NYC on his own. We could actually just put Rush on one end of the US and Obama on the other end and Biden in the middle and never run out of power cause none of them ever shut the hell up.

[circmand]

Hmmmm seamed to miss "Although its clear that current electric vehicles arent the way forward" in your whole governent conspiracy theory attack hahaha

Seemed to miss? Actually I left it out because electric cars MAY be the solution. But to know this we have to measure honestly and not allow the government to do like the NFL referees are doing and decide the winners. In addition if we get everyone driving electric we do not have existing energy capacity to create enough to recharge all the cars. What happens then the cost of electricity skyrockets and the cost per mile figured out for current use is no longer correct. Look what happened to the price of corn when the govt forced ethanol on us. It greatly increased the cost of corn as food for humans, cattle feed as well and gas with ethanol causes vehicles to get lower mpg so more gas is needed all driving up the cost per mile as opposed to reducing it.

[Y33TREKker]

I think the benifits are supposed to be for the environment arent they?

Exactly.

Throw the money involved into the mix though, and it's endless smoke and mirrors. Play the endless scenarios of "how much will it cost me" and/or "how much money can possibly be made" to their conclusions though and a person is still left with one reality...what good will the money that's been saved or made do if the only option is to spend it in a place that's no longer habitable?

Of course, that hinges on whether a person believes that current man-made technologies are worsening the environment, but we won't go there.

Now maybe the current technologies still aren't to the point of making electric cars viable as all-purpose vehicles, but at least attempts are being made to come up with alternatives. And in my opinion, that is where the focus should be maintained, as opposed to only pointing out perceived problems or failings.