Nutrition and Health - Proven results w/Science

[Leah]

Leah... since you wake up feeling worse, have you looked into the possibility of sleep apnea?

I dread mornings... killer headaches, lethargic, etc..

I'm supposed to wear a CPAP machine every night, which gives you much needed O2, but it does get frustrating and I usually go to sleep without putting it on. ;(

Hi Luna,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have had some form of insomnia for many years. It usually takes me a couple of hours to fall asleep and then I wake up about every hour and a half after that. By the time the morning rolls around, I'm exhausted. I just got some Ambian from the doctor but I can't take it unless I know I can sleep for 8 uninterupted hours. With my work schedule the way it is, I haven't been able to try it yet, but I hope to, tomorrow night.

There has been some conjecture that the reason for my insomnia is a trained response over the years of living with my ex and fearing for my life. The belief is that, as time goes by and I feel safer and get used to the idea that I don't have to stay somewhat alert all the time, that I will relax and be able to get a good night's sleep. I actually am sleeping better than I was 6 months ago, and truthfully, I slept better during the time on the zija products...but I couldn't say for sure why or that it had 100% to do with it. Hormones are so fickle at my age.

[JHarris1385]

A community looks out for its members. When someone puts in the effort to do research and apply their experience and critical thinking skills and then shares the results they are contributing to the community.

With that as a baseline, my posts in this thread are at least as valid as yours. Based on the results of the research I've previously cited, and your apoplectic responses, I think they are even more so.

Quite honestly your posts and multiple references to additional links did not highlight any fault or harm that would be caused by the consumption of Zija or Moringa. More so and in addition they also did not disprove anything I posted either. I completely understand looking out for the community here as I have shared for years any advice I can give or suggested to stray away from something. However with this being harmless and only beneficial, your attempts, post no merit other than potential personal gains.

For whomever has an issue with this being branded as an MLM or something of that nature. We can boil it down to this: yes it could be a potential income source from introducing this to you all. While some may have a problem with that, I do not have a problem with other members selling parts for profit either fabricated or extras. Everyone has their own personal reasoning of what motivates them to sell anything on here be auto like or else. To be open and honest with you...have you ever seen a student loan bill for graduate or med school?

With that being said, I honestly did not want to post the above in response to any negativity in hopes it would die down. However I felt that I had a point to make both that nothing was pinpointed to be harmful in anyway and that if advertising on here is wrong, then I apologize, as I was not aware of where the line should have been drawn.

Zija and Moringa is actually helping a lot of local people, in many ways. It would be of great benefit to me as the informant and you to be able to hear first hand. However due to my location I am not surrounded by many others on here. I do have a relative and she has about 10 friends on it out in San Fran, if anyone would like to speak to her. I feel as though I have given adequate information on this and you can take it or leave it. 1. It IS a great product, and is a see it to believe it and 2. It is a source of side income (who wouldn't want that)

[JHarris1385]

Just in case here is the facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Zija-f...24800087566315

[Stephen Biko]

Quite honestly your posts and multiple references to additional links did not highlight any fault or harm that would be caused by the consumption of Zija or Moringa.

That's absolutely true,
but completely irrelevant.
What my research turned up was:

• Your claims of "science" were all hokum -- you cited articles that were merely literature surveys.
• Your use of the Johns Hopkins imprimatur was undeserved -- the guy at JHU was a non-tenure track prof studying broccoli
• Your claims of "peer review" were overblown -- when the editor in chief is also an article's author it is a conflict of interest.
• That there is a tremendous amount of Zija marketing hype on the very website you linked to.

I felt that I had a point to make both that nothing was pinpointed to be harmful in anyway

I wrote that the vegetable is a common crop on the indian sub-continent, that's pretty much the opposite of claiming it is harmful. You are the only person in this entire thread to bring up the question of potential harm. I think you brought it up as a red herring so you could vent your frustration at having your faith in this vegetable called into question.

I honestly did not want to post the above in response to any negativity in hopes it would die down.

Coming back a week after the last post in the thread with a made-up grievance is really more of a way to kick it up a notch. Instead, I recommend simply avoiding outrageous and unsupportable claims. I guarantee that will keep me from responding.

your attempts, post no merit other than potential personal gains

I have so much to gain because I am selling the anti-scam - everybody give me your money and I will research and debunk specious claims from MLM converts. I even did the first one "at cost" - so it's like I'm not even actually selling anything.

For whomever has an issue with this being branded as an MLM or something of that nature.

The reason people have an issue with the MLM is that legitimate MLMs are as scarce as hen's teeth. Coming out full-throttle with appeals to authority like indiscriminately citing "peer review," claiming PubMed is "top tier," trying to blind us with 'science' and your acceptance to medical school only increase the skepticism.

I don't doubt your sincerity one iota, you clearly have a belief in this vegetable that leaves no room for doubt.
And that is what I have an issue with.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell

[JHarris1385]

This is ridiculous.

This has turned into something that mimics a political debate, as I throw something out there and you have spun it around to make it look bad, but really it doesn't count.

You have an issue with a man that holds an Doctorate of Science because he happens to work not only for John Hopkins School of Medicine but Trees for Life? Both of those two are completely fine in my books and that should be the same for everyone. He wrote a review paper referencing some 100+ sources and you act like it means nothing? No doctor, no person with a higher degree, nor a School like JH will ever allow something to have their name on it if they did not fully back it. That is common sense. So that point - means zero.

Seems your main issue is it is some form MLM or direct sales or so forth. And if this was not the case I would not have you to deal with.

Now I don't really want to compare Zija and Moringa to others like in the same sales style category but....I can almost guarantee that someone if not quite a few have pampered chef utensils in their kitchen. Am I right? This is another company that decided to sell this way, and is not a bad product and in fact is pretty good. I can name a few more too. So my point is just because it is set up this way does not make an inferior product. It was their choice to do it this way after expanding their product line and taking it off the shelves in 2004. Think about it, on the shelf you have to advertise this new product in a more typical fashion. The way it is now you have true users of it doing face to face marketing, which is much more affective. Affective because on the shelf the average person will not take much time to really read about it and try to personally distinguish it from the rest. However when face to face there will be time.

There is nothing in this message that you can spin around and make it look bad. However given your history, you will find a way to make what you say look important with your ample free time to waste on such a product. Then once again I will have to debunk it. We are much of a family here, and my point of it not being harmful, proclaims that there is no reason for you to do what you have done. Thank you for high jacking this thread to this extreme. You need a crash course in VehiCross threads 101.

[Ascinder]

[Osteomata]

I'm impressed. By the critique, that is. I haven't been logged in to Vehicross Info in a while, but it is pretty gratifying to see that inside of four responses and someone points out the whole thing is an MLM product, and Biko takes the time to research and point out the psuedo pscientific nonsense surrounding this wonder cure. How many things has the OP claimed this miracle product can help wiht so far? I lost count.

Thanks, Stephen Biko, for taking the time. Especially loved the challenge of the OPs appeal to authority. Plus, anyone who signs off with Bertrand Russell is OK in my book

The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed.
- SB

[JHarris1385]

Knowledge is power - JRH 2010

Fact: He was not able to point out any nonsense within it. More so was only able to point out that the author of the John Hopkins review paper was also working for Trees for Life. That doesn't make it any less credible.

Fact: I figured there would be more here that were open minded.

Fact: Is a MLM/Direct Marketing, who cares, that does not make it and inferior product.

Fact: Too many people locally with great stories and results as well as nationwide and other countries.

Thanks for your understanding.

[JHarris1385]

Quite honestly do you think I thought it would not be brought up that this was set up the way it is? I insisted on anyone googling it if they wanted to. In addition, if it came down to it how else would I introduce the business side of it without informing of this?

It does not bother me of how it is set up. Many people around us work for or share products from companies. This one just happens to be one of the few that is more so medicinal.

[Osteomata]

Knowledge is power - JRH 2010

Fact: He was not able to point out any nonsense within it. More so was only able to point out that the author of the John Hopkins review paper was also working for Trees for Life. That doesn't make it any less credible.

Fact: I figured there would be more here that were open minded.

Fact: Is a MLM/Direct Marketing, who cares, that does not make it and inferior product.

Fact: Too many people locally with great stories and results as well as nationwide and other countries.

Thanks for your understanding.

You seem confused as to the definition of a fact, as yours' are not, actually.

Opinion: I think he pretty skillfully pointed out the nonsense you are selling.
Opinion: Your second point is pretty much the definition of an opinion. You figured...
Opinion: MLM marketing is often scams, and what is not a scam is often useless, regardless of the True Believers selling it. Like your product, for instance.
Opinion: The plural of anecdote is not evidence, despite your just so stories and personal testimonies.

[VX KAT]

Argh!!!! Make it stop, please!!!!!!




yes, I know I could just stop reading the thread...but IMO it'd be nicer if it just ceased......Just IMHO

[Ascinder]

Argh!!!! Make it stop, please!!!!!!




yes, I know I could just stop reading the thread...but IMO it'd be nicer if it just ceased......Just IMHO

X2 Seriously you guys need to just agree to disagree. Just let it go. No really, no response is needed. You don't even need to reply. Just let sleeping dogs lie. Just accept there are conflicting views and live with it. Why even try to support your point against someone who is absolutely opposed to your point of view? It's like trying to convince Nazis to support Judiasm or making communists see the virtues of capitalism. YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME!!!. You have already convinced anyone who is remotely aligned to your point of view already. Seriously arguing this thread is wasting time past this point. Figure it out. That is not meant as a challenge to post a rebuttal, but a call to stop posting so this thread doesn't keep finding it's way to the top. Myself, and a great many others are tired of having to sift through your tirades to see posts that actually have a legitimate meaning to something relating to the topic of a goddamn vehi-cross. Soapbox session: OVER!

[Stephen Biko]

YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME!!!.
...
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on me.

Sounds like it might be time for a new .sig there.

[Stephen Biko]

Sorry guys, but the irony is just too great for me not to make one truely self-indulgent post here. I apologize for the fit of incoherence that is sure to follow. Really, I do.

Turns out there really is something to JRH's theory about moringa being harmful. It is a good thing he brought it up.

You know that survey paper that Johns Hopkins "fully backs" just because a guy studying broccoli at JHU wrote it? That paper includes a study -- one that used real science to compare the effects of feeding ground-up moringa seeds to rats versus a standard laboratory baseline diet of egg-white protein.

Guess what? Eating moringa caused those rats to suffer "loss of appetite, impaired growth, lower NPU and enlargement of stomach, small intestine, caecum+colon, liver, pancreas, kidneys, heart and lungs and atrophy of thymus and spleen."

See for yourself it is reference #112 in the "Johns Hopkins Paper"

Here's the abstract of the study itself, just a paragraph long in reasonably plain english.

So there you have it, Johns Hopkins says moringa can cause impaired growth plus enlargement of many important organs in the body. Remember, "No doctor, no person with a higher degree, nor a School like JH will ever allow something to have their name on it if they did not fully back it. That is common sense." So it must be true.

If it weren't for JRH's meticulous understanding of academia and scientific research that brought the "JHU paper" to our attention we would never have learned how dangerous this plant is. If you don't want your organs to swell up, avoid it!

PS, moringa makes a good pesticide too. Lollers!

[JHarris1385]

In reference to your pesticide post - We should all be aware from basic science knowledge that plants have natural ways or warding off potential predators by things internal or as simple as sight or smell. What you have posted is a link from pubmed that states the lectin within does just this. We have lectin right now in our bodies. Some lectin is good some bad and some are bad or good to other forms of life and not us. Now considering we do not share the same circulatory or digestive tracks of a flying insect this does not harm us. I can easily go into more detail but maybe I need to keep this basic.

In reference to your rat post - This is not as easily explained in basic form. So follow me...your post stated that the seeds have a deficient levels of the amino acids lysine, threonine and valine. Well first, lysine in a rat is the first limiting amino acid. Which means if in low volumes of what is needed, alters the protein synthesis cycle within during translation/transcription/DNA/RNA process. So this means the rats were fed a diet that malnourished them. An effect of being malnourished is enlarged bloating gut and organs. As stated this alters the protein cycle of building your cells correctly. This would create a mutation in the line up of your amino acids, possibly leading to a missense mutation. Lysine comes from the leaves of the plant.


Are we done yet? I feel I did quite a good job.

I agree you don't like anything about this. We have gotten way off course. Could you find it possible to cease your posts of negativity? There has not been once I was not able to show you the other side of things. I would like to continue to post positive things about this as you have been more than able to make your point and steer anyone away from this at this point.


Like I said this is science.