Nutrition and Health - Proven results w/Science

[JHarris1385]

It is what it is. However I am not being pushy to even suggest everyone try it. We have all helped out each other in various ways and this is just another form.

[Stephen Biko]

It is what it is. However I am not being pushy to even suggest everyone try it.

The soft-sell is no less a form of selling than the hard-sell. I believe its actually more so because everyone knows the hard-sell when they see it.

Nor is sincerity a defense either, most snake-oil salesmen have an honest, well-meaning, but naive belief in their product. It's only the guys at the top of the pyramids who are the cynical manipulators.

[vt_maverick]

The soft-sell is no less a form of selling than the hard-sell. I believe its actually more so because everyone knows the hard-sell when they see it.

Well there you go JHarris, may as well start threatening people with imminent death if they don't sign up. You guys kill me, why the need to keep trying to vilify the guy? If this thread bothers you, why are you even reading it?

[Stephen Biko]

Well there you go JHarris, may as well start threatening people with imminent death if they don't sign up. You guys kill me, why the need to keep trying to vilify the guy? If this thread bothers you, why are you even reading it?

I can't speak for anyone else, but:

(A) This thread does not bother me
(B) Saying the guy is naive is not vilification, condescending perhaps, but so much for political correctness
(C) It is at least as valid to bring logical and rational criticism of claims made in a public forum as it is to make those claims in the first place

Here's another criticism - individual evaluations of this sort will never have meaningful results. It is essentially impossible to control for all possible variables. It is the same effect that results in a market for $500 5-foot ethernet cables. If real science were actually involved instead of just hand-wavingly claimed, there would be results from testing akin to randomized control trials. If this stuff really worked as claimed the money that would come as a result of legitimate proof would easily justify the cost of such testing.

[vt_maverick]

I can't speak for anyone else, but:

(A) This thread does not bother me
(B) Saying the guy is naive is not vilification, condescending perhaps, but so much for political correctness
(C) It is at least as valid to bring logical and rational criticism of claims made in a public forum as it is to make those claims in the first place

Well I grant you that you're humble enough to acknowledge the possibility of the former; that's something I have been accused of from time to time so I'd be the last to cast stones. As for the latter, I wouldn't argue the value of the debate, I just think the debate should be focused on evaluating the product/manufacturer rather than continuing to cast the OP as a hard-seller (well intentioned or not).

Here's another criticism - individual evaluations of this sort will never have meaningful results. It is essentially impossible to control for all possible variables. It is the same effect that results in a market for $500 5-foot ethernet cables. If real science were actually involved instead of just hand-wavingly claimed, there would be results from testing akin to randomized control trials. If this stuff really worked as claimed the money that would come as a result of legitimate proof would easily justify the cost of such testing.

This is a very good point, anyone who ever took a statistics class learned that the larger the sample size the more reliable the results; conversely, the smaller the sample the more susceptible the results are to the myriad factors you mentioned. So I thank Leah for her efforts to document her experience, as we can at least infer that in the short term this supplement (as with almost anything) likely has very little effect. But you're right, anything beyond that is pure conjecture.

[Stephen Biko]

I just think the debate should be focused on evaluating the product/manufacturer rather than continuing to cast the OP as a hard-seller (well intentioned or not).

I was responding to his claim that avoiding the hard-sell made his involvement less about salesmanship. It was at least the second time that he used that argument in this thread. The first time I let it pass since it seemed like a straight-forward non sequitur. But the second time around I thought it deserved a rebuttal.

[Leah]

Unfortunately, no weight loss. I was pretty wiped out yesterday afternoon and spent most of the day in bed after working 8 hrs. I slept late today since I didn't have to go in until 3 est. In 8 days, the only thing I noticed improvement on was waking up. But for me, that's pretty significant. I seem to have an allergy to waking up, feeling dizzy, nauseous, depressed, but on the zija products, I have started waking up feeling more alert with no dizziness or nausea (depression at having to work for a living must be standard issue). At the risk of giving TMI, I am attributing my fatigue to hormones and a monthly visit - poor timing.

So, all in all, I had a good time with this thread and the trial, and if I had the money, I would go ahead for another 22 days to finish out an entire month to give the product a fair-er chance, but my ticket is used up and I have to get off the ride.

Thanks for the laughs...especially to those of you who loved to look into this thread just to complain about how much you hated looking into this thread!

And thanks, John, for your kindness. Hope to see you and your VX again soon.

And on to another guinea-pig project...