4 Officers shot near Lakewood WA

[Osteomata]

Circmand,

I really don't think you are discussiong this in good faith. Even though I have said half a dozen times that I am only talking about the original decision, and by extension governors powers in this area, you keep brining in the later crimes as if they are predictable. "wow a cop killer gunned down by police who could predict that. Huge sums of money spent in the man hunt who could predict that?" You know perfectly well that I am talking abou the predictive ability from 2000, when there was no evidence that he was an insane wannabee child molester/cop-killer. Both of your sarcastic predictions were predicated on us already knowing that he had gone off the rails and murdered four cops, and then predicting that he would die in a shoot out. Not at all the same subject.

Also, the six arrests were actually, I believe, two, mabye three with multiple charges included, all addressed in one court appearance, one conviction, one sentence. I believe what happened is that his arrest for one of the burgleries/thefts lead to evidence of the other crimes, allowing the police to charge him for those as well.

Doesn't matter what it really comes down to is this, and I am honestly trying to capture your true argument/position rather than a bad faith distortion of it, so correct me if I am wrong.. Scratch, that, let me just ask you out right if this is your opinion:
- There should be no power of governors or other officials to grant clemency, commute sentences, or grant pardons.
- There should be no such thing as parole, i.e., conditional monitored release before the end of an assigned sentence.
- There should be no such thing as early release for whatever reason the various states have instituted it.
- The percent of our population in prison, higher than any other country in the world, should actually be higher, as all parolees and commuted sentence convicts should still be incarcerated until the end of their maximum sentence. (I fully admit this is a loaded statement which I worded this way just to illustrate the effect of the first three statements)

And from our other discussion before we focused on Clemmons:
- You do not believe that the governor of a state should have the power to stop executions pending review and improvement of the process, even if 18 death row inmates in his state have been exonerated.

[Moncha]

Even with a few complaints received, this thread will remain open, it's in the appropriate location so, no problem with that.

Although the OP was merely pointing out the tragedy of what happened, I knew this would spark, at the least, a minor debate. I am impressed, for the conduct has remained civil. Remember the RULES and it shall remain open.

[VXR]

Huckabee does have a disturbing record of granting clemency. As I stated before this is not the first person he let out that later killed someone (and maybe not the last).

Huckabee also pressured the parole board to free Wayne DuMond, who was serving time for raping a high school student. They paroled him on the condition that he leave Arkansas. He moved to neighboring Missouri, where he raped and murdered Carol Sue Shields.

In all, he issued 1,033 pardons and commutations during more than 10 years as governor an average of about one every four days.

I think one good thing has already come from this. At the very least (although maybe for only a short time) I believe any governor who wants to continue and/or further their political career will learn from this and think twice before granting any clemency.

[Osteomata]

I had forgotten about the Dumond case, VXR. I seem to recall one of the crucial aspects of that case being the question, as you have highlighted, of Huckabee's possibly applying inappropriate pressure to the parole board. I believe that incident is still highly contentious, with pretty good evidence supporting the accusation, but a lot of it possibly tainted by political payback and CYA.

Let me ask you a question: Given that you view as a good thing the idea that governors will significantly role back there clemency/pardon/commutation/etc decisions as a result of this incident, how do you arrrive at this "one good thing" assessment? What I mean is, how do you measure the benefits versus the downside? I assume you see the benefit as "a certain portion of these parolees/commutees/clemency cases would have reverted and committed horrible crimes, so we have prevented that happening." But given that the purpose of all these gubernatorial decisions is to even out discrepencies in sentencing between district courts, to compensate for those wierd legal situations where the idiosynchracies of the law allowed a transgression of a certain level to be punished at a much higher level, where an apparant overreach of the prosecutor appears to have resulted in overpunishment, or possilby where a convict has demonstrated extraordinary potential, how do you measure the benefit of that? Its much easier to point to a couple of cases where the worst happened and say "I told you so." Its much harder to point to the numerous cases where nothing bad happened at all and say "see the system worked, this person became a productive citezen" That just doesnt make headlines.

I guess what I'm asking is, do the thousands of cases where the clemancy "worked", (which I define as a non-recidivist case) matter? Or should we only concern ourselves with the demonstrated worst outcomes (Clemmons, Dumond), and based on those assume the worst in all of them? If there is a reasonable possibility of actual rehabilitation, rather than merely retribution for the crime, should that be considered?

[VXR]

I never stated there should never be any clemency, pardons, or commutations. I just wanted to point out that it can be overdone as I believe it was in the case of Huckabee.

We only know of these two cases because they killed people. It would be interesting to know how many of the 1,033 did re-offend to a lesser degree and/or did not get caught.

So yes I think governors thinking twice or being extra careful when making these decisions is a good thing.

[circmand]

The rules are set. People get there day in court. A ton of tax payer money is spent for the trial even more for an attorney for one who cant afford one. A jury who has heard all the evidence decides guilt ajudge who heard the case decides sentence. Then after all this is done a Governor who knows nothing about the case can over rule it. Or in the case of Clinton anyone who can come up with a million or two can get a pardon even if they did not serve one day of their sentence.

On top of that we coddle them in prison. Meals that are not only 3 a day but Kosher or other dietary specials. Yeah if they are so religous why were they out committing crimes? Required AC and exercise time.

[Ldub]

Here we go again...

At least y'all have the good sense to take weekends off.

[circmand]

you still continue to read it.

[vt_maverick]

[And yet] you still continue to read it.

... while hoping to see "THE END."

J/k, have fun guys.

[Ldub]

you still continue to read it.

At this point, it's become it's own car wreck.

You don't want to look, yet feel strangely compelled...

[tom4bren]

At this point, it's become it's own car wreck.

You don't want to look, yet feel strangely compelled...

sorta like anytime Dumke posts a new pic. Afraid to look ... jest can't hep yersef.

[handeeman]

At this point, it's become it's own car wreck.

You don't want to look, yet feel strangely compelled...

Boy, not me. I alway keep my eyes closed till I feel the impact and hear glass breaking. My DD is a 08 F-350 lifted 6", my last incidents were with "Smart" cars. However, I will say I did feel compelled to look in my rear view mirror.

[Anita]

sorta like anytime Dumke posts a new pic. Afraid to look ... jest can't hep yersef.

WHERE is there a new pic???

[Triathlete]

Required AC and exercise time.

Not in Maricopa County!

[circmand]

and pink jump suits to boot

Go Sheriff Joe