**Patriotic Retirement**

[Marlin]

Everybody is so touchy today! I thought everybody born after 1980 was in trouble. Everything has been dumbed-down. Most highschool grads can't do simple math or read above a 5th grade level.Cuts in education and zero attention span(from video games) are part of the problem.

True true, I teach at the nuclear power school, when I came in, Physics and Algebra2/trig were minimums. Now, I have students who never got past earth science, and never took math past algebra. These kids are the top 10% of the nation on standardized tests!!!

[tom4bren]

Ever stop to think that the current financial mess is nothing more than a predicatable cyclic trend?

Sure, a lot of good points were made in this thread about cause & effect (although it did degenerate into a lot of generalizations that should have been left unsaid).

The consumer based economy had gotten so inflated that it HAD to deflate or burst. Cmon, does a city the size of Fredericksburg, VA really needs 3 super WalMarts, 1 Target & 2 super Targets, 9 McDonalds, 5 Burger Kings, 5 Wendys, 48 grocerie stores, 22 auto parts stores, 16 new car dealerships, ... ?

[tom4bren]

Sorry - I exagerated. We only have 2 super WalMarts & 1 regular.

[Moncha]

I must say, you make me proud!
It's been a long time since I have been able to witness an actual debate on this forum without the tendency to turn it into a tyrannical tirade.

My "kids" are growing up!

[Marlin]

Ever stop to think that the current financial mess is nothing more than a predicatable cyclic trend?

Very good point as far as the trend, kind of like global warming, we are on our way out of an ice age, of course it's gonna get warmer...lol

"Sure, a lot of good points were made in this thread about cause & effect (although it did degenerate into a lot of generalizations that should have been left unsaid)."



As far as things that should not have been said, that's just crazy, our country is full of close mouthed whiners that are too scared to talk about anything because they might offend someone. Who cares, it is NOT against the law to offend others. No one is willing to say what they think, so we sit around waiting for someone to say it for us. I 100% enjoy these threads, almost as much as I enjoy talkin about the Vx!!!!! Freedom of speech is the most important freedom we have, and we are one of the last places in the world that have any remnant of that freedom, better exercise it, or it may go away...

[Marlin]

I must say, you make me proud!
It's been a long time since I have been able to witness an actual debate on this forum without the tendency to turn it into a tyrannical tirade.

My "kids" are growing up!

Oh Scott, you sound like my dad....makes me laugh. My little brother and I go at it all the time (he is a social worker at an old folks home, so we often don't see eye to eye when it comes to politics)

[pbkid]

I 100% enjoy these threads, almost as much as I enjoy talkin about the Vx!!!!! Freedom of speech is the most important freedom we have, and we are one of the last places in the world that have any remnant of that freedom, better exercise it, or it may go away...

x2!!!!

for once...........agreed, fully.....

[Jolly Roger VX'er]

I've worked jobs that are non-union as well as 2 jobs that were union and believe either can succeed if run properly; and feel that alot of the positives found in todays non-union jobs can be traced back to the past when unions fought for those rights.

I don't like how everyone is focused on what unionized work forces are struggling and drawing a generalization from them and applying it to everybody. Sure the car companies that have unions are ready to go under. But, the blame can be spread around in alot of directions. Chrysler is headed up by Bob Nardelli, he used to be MY plant manager...what a useless corporate dictator. Home Depot was dumb enough to hire him as CEO and he about run them into the ground...now Chrysler does the ultimate, dumb move and hires him to run a car company!

If you want to talk about a unionized company that is doing well...look at John Deere.

I personally work for GE. We are union...and even though the GE stock has fell into the toilet...it can all be traced back to GE Capital. It is the black hole of the whole corporation; as even though our unionized manufacturing division was making record profits building locomotives for sale worldwide...The Capital division was busy making bad loans and morgages which in the end sucked away our profits (black hole analogy).

Never felt I was owed anything by anybody. Worked hard for what I've managed to get in my life; only buying what I can afford...I bought a $50k house 9 years ago with a 15yr. morgage with payments that are equivalent to what I paid for rent when living in apartments even though the bank tried diligently to get me to go for a $120k house. Financed and paid for the VX. Saved up & paid outright for a new diesel kubota tractor and suzuki V-Strom motorcycle. Wanted a new sports car...could've gotten a new challenger, camaro or mustang with my credit rating...settled for an '07 Mustang GT (Premium pkg.) coupe w/ 5k miles on odometer for $19k.

Bottom line, having worked minimum waged jobs & factory union jobs...will do whatever is necessary to survive in this world. If this job goes under...I'll most likely look at being a truck driver as my next profession. Change can be good!

P.S.- I tried getting a job as an autoworker 20 years ago. I never did hear what they paid hourly...I just loved cars and thought building them for a living would be FUN. I even tried getting a job at Harley Davidson...came real close...never did hear what they paid...thought building Harley's would be FUN! Notice a pattern here???

[nocturnalVX]

Next, on the subject of union bashing, maybe we should abandon what unions gave lives for and go back to child labor, 16 or more hour work days, and work 6 or more days a week mandatory with zero benefits, no worker safety laws and live in the company town, in company housing that you will be charged for, and buy from the company store ending up with little or no savings. That is if they will hire you based on your ethnicity. Businesses routinely hired Pinkertons and other private security to beat and kill union organizers while police stood idly by. Now they have the police and national guard doing that job on occasion.
I hope nobody believes that businesses gave anything to unions out of the goodness of their heart. Everything is negotiated. A general way of putting it is that both parties give things up to reach a settlement. Now the Administration wants the UAW workers to give up wages that they negotiated while keeping businesses' side of the negotiations intact. NOT FAIR! And is it fair that UAW workers should reduce their standard of living to match that of a semi-literate former dung farmer, south of the mason-dixon line who THINKS he won the lottery because a foreign owned company is paying half of what he should be making?
How is it that until the decline in unionism, early 70's, That one man could support a family without the wife or kids having to work? A lot of so-called "skilled workers" conveniently forget that they got their college education through union employed parents paying the bill. THE UNIONS OFFER A MAN OR WOMAN A DECENT STANDARD OF LIVING and EQUAL REPRESENTATION and PAY!!!. That is what it is about.

Very well spoken! Some things have not changed that much...

I work (a union job) in a city that forces it's employees to live within its borders. Home prices (in decent areas of the city) are much higher than better homes in the suburbs. We have the highest sales tax in the nation, income tax is going up 50%, and benefits are going down. Employees are forced to take unpaid days off (while politicians get raises) because the government can't figure out that you should not spend more than you take in. Not only are jobs being given away to private firms that staff people (quite a few that can not even speak english) making a fraction of the money the people they are replacing did, but some positions are simply not filled or elliminated. Luckily, I work where most of these kind of things can't take place because of safety issues. I can not afford to work for free. What would it be like if the unions could not negotiate?

Politicians (Democrats or Republicans) and rich CEOs don't care about the little guys as long as they are raking in the $$$. The city, state, country, or business is in the red and failing? No worries... take it from the little guys!

I am single with no kids, but (even though I am paid well) I have very little financial cushion. My house is worth $60,000 LESS than it did 3 years ago when I bought it. I can not immagine trying to raise a family of 5 like my parents did. There is no way! Do it on one income so that a loving parent can be watching over the kids... ha! So, TV & video games will teach the little ones while mom and dad are working 2 or more jobs just to get by. That is... until the boss finds out it can be done cheaper in China/Mexico/India/wherever, and he can double HIS profit. Then they are screwed...

[Bulldoggie]

I'm 55 today, so I thought I'd share my experience.

Unions are not perfect, but before unions, children labored in the factories, alongside their fathers.
Not only were there no health or retirement packages for workers, they owed for their needs from the employers company store!
Not much different than being owned. (Slaves?)
Unions became worthless, after a President intervened in an AIR traffic controllers strike.
He threw out the union, and BANNED all workers from seeking work in their chosen and highly skilled professions.
the National Labor Relations Board has since changed the rules for unions ability to strike, mandating that they can not interfere with a Businesses rite to carry-on business.

As some of you know, I used to work on Tug boats. (union labor)
Tug boats typically have staterooms for many hands, but through negotiations, crew members were eliminated in favor of more pay, since a deckhand is the cook, engineer, deckhand and barge pilot ect...
A modern crew is One capt. and one deckhand.
The work could not be done with less, and could not be much harder to perform.

We had one strike, management tried to crew One boat, with four "deckhands", and could only move one barge in a full day.
The strike was over in two days.

Twelve years later, a few months after signing a new contract, they sold the boats from under us. I was brought back to the dock for a crew change, only to be met by security guards. My co-workers showing up for their shifts, were met at the gate with paychecks made out to the minute.
Their attorneys poured over the contract, and found the language forbidding the sale or termination of the contract, Had no penalty for doing it spelled out.
I found myself along with everyone I worked with, competing for the lowest few junior positions available, with the few other tug companies.
Only working part-time and being bumped by the 20 year old with no experience, hired days before.

All because another Division involved themselves,with a NON-union contractor, and was sued for poor quality control on a freeway job in Calif.
Yes, my Company built the Glen Jackson bridge over the Columbia river, and dredged the mountain out of the Columbia river after Mt Saint Helens.


Soap Box #2

Even if you hate Michel Moore, You MUST see his film "Sicko".

Why I'm not wealthy today;

90% health coverage, and my share of one summer of Chemo-therapy.

$50k not counting lost wages.

Three broken ribs, punctured lung, crushed talus bone (ankle), dislocated right elbow (sling for 12 months), Angioplasty (2 stents) Diabetes, meds.
Too many back spasms, Due mostly to poor care. Back surgery;
All with expensive cost at a time of little, to no income!

I have never drawn unemployment wages.
I returned to work always with less than recommended healing time.

Add to that a mentally ill ex-wife. a special needs child (not biologically mine) and poor credit, (ex-wife again) and NO family to fall on.
And it becomes impossible to "get ahead"
and at 55, my healthiest years are behind me.

Please don't try to tell me the economy is Union Labor's fault, or American workers are lazy.

But go ahead and complain about the poor non-union quality work that you still pay the same amount for. (or more?)

over

I promised I would not get political on this site, but it is not Labors/unions fault.

And yes, I do know I could have retire well.

Best of health to you all

[nocturnalVX]

Sure the car companies that have unions are ready to go under. But, the blame can be spread around in alot of directions. Chrysler is headed up by Bob Nardelli, he used to be MY plant manager...what a useless corporate dictator. Home Depot was dumb enough to hire him as CEO and he about run them into the ground...now Chysler does the ultimate, dumb move and hires him to run a car company!

P.S.- I tried getting a job as an autoworker 20 years ago. I never did hear what they paid hourly...I just loved cars and thought building them for a living would be FUN. I even tried getting a job at Harley Davidson...came real close...never did hear what they paid...thought building Harley's would be FUN! Notice a pattern here???

Perfect example!
FACT:
From 1973-1983, Harley-Davidson’s market share went from 78% to 23% as Japanese manufacturers flooded the market with high quality, low priced bikes.

Harley was going to fail because of serious mis-management and the fact that they had a piss-poor product. The company turned around because they not only started to make a better bike, but people that cared about the company took control. Then President Ronald Reagan imposed a tariff on import bikes over 700cc. That gave Harley a little help, and we didn't have to give them billions to take spa vacations. By 1987, Harley was profitable again, and asked the government to end the tariff... yes, THEY stopped it. Since then Harley has opened more factories, dealers, and created thousands of jobs here in America.

The U.S. (made in Canada/Mexico/Germany/South Korean/Australia) auto industry (for the most part) refuses to up their game, but will take money from the taxpayers. Hey! How about that new Pontiac Solstice coupe with the targa top... that you have to leave at home because there is no place to store it in the car. The 1972 Fiat X1/9 even solved THAT mystery. Hope it never rains on your road trip...

[tom4bren]

"As far as things that should not have been said, that's just crazy"

'People who generalize are stupid'

Izzat better?

[Marlin]

"As far as things that should not have been said, that's just crazy"

'People who generalize are stupid'

Izzat better?

Nicely done, a bit of a personal attack, but clever just the same. As far as the generalizations or stereotypes, by definition, they are mostly true. Do not even assume for a second that I believe that all union workers are lazy, or that all poor people are poor because of their own actions, there are always exceptions. That is why it's "general". But the same as the electoral college works, 51% of a state votes democrat, then all of the electoral votes for that state go to the Democrat candidate, generalizing that whole state as Democrat. (Just an example) Insurance companies do it everyday, hence young males pay far more in auto insurance than the same age female, because generally, a young male is more likely to do something dumb, probably to show off for a girl. Therefore their insurance is higher. I have never been in an accident that was deemed my fault, but I still paid the higher rate when I was young. Any company that sells any product, generalizes and stereotypes their marketing in order to maximize their sales. So you must be right, 'People who generalize are stupid', therefore, anyone who is in designing, sales, engineering, investing, insurance and so on must be stupid.... which I believe, if I am not mistaken, in some way, is ultimately everyone, except the unemployed, making them the smartest!!!!

[tom4bren]

"So you must be right, 'People who generalize are stupid', therefore, anyone who is in designing, sales, engineering, investing, insurance and so on must be stupid"

My point Xactly

My subliminal point was that the comment itself was a generalization which inferred a diminutive to my own cognizant psychi.

'Nuff big words for today - I have a headache.

BTW, I wasn't trying to attack you personally (sorry if I came across that way). Generalizations happen to be one of my pet peeves - that is what I was attacking.

[Marlin]

"So you must be right, 'People who generalize are stupid', therefore, anyone who is in designing, sales, engineering, investing, insurance and so on must be stupid"

My point Xactly

My subliminal point was that the comment itself was a generalization which inferred a diminutive to my own cognizant psychi.

'Nuff big words for today - I have a headache.

I got the original joke, hence the "very clever" comment
For real LOLLOLOLOLOL. Thanks, you made my day, just got home from work, and I went in yesterday at 0600. Tough to make someone smile after 30 hours at work.