ya...i go to school from 9-5 every weekday and i work 6-10...oh and i work 10-7 on the weekends...Originally Posted by Marlin
definately not willing to work hard!
Super VXer
ya...i go to school from 9-5 every weekday and i work 6-10...oh and i work 10-7 on the weekends...
definately not willing to work hard!
"Do Not Seek Praise. Seek Criticism."
"If You Can't Solve A Problem, It's Because You're Playing By The Rules."
"The Perosn Who Doesn't Make Mistakes Is Unlikely To Make Anything."
-Paul Arden
Super VXer
Godness !
Marlin,my friend,those are serious words you wrote there.
Being poor isn't a sin or neither a reason to 'BLAME' the poor for the economic crisis.
I can't neither share with you the facts that the poor doesn't willing to work harder,for example a co-worker got into an crash because a nurse who isn't neither a rich individual was heading home from her 2nd JOB & ended up wrecking his tahoe & her mazda cx9 because she were so tied cannot keep her eyes open.
There's a lot of people struggling hard to survive on the salary you say they don't deserve because they are unskilled & not willing to word harder,actually most of the comporations doesn't pay the right wages to their employees,but remember,without those unskilled workers there'll be no wealthy.
What if all unskilled workers in the US decide not to buy an american car they can afford any more ? will the CEO's hold a job to improve the manufacturer's sales ? i bid you no way.
And if your ask a a financial expert about improving workers salaries & wages he'l tell you : ! Man,that'll help the economy.....i mean, a lot !
Blaming the poor is the last thing i can think of,it just can't fit in my mind.
What'bout placing all the wealthy guys to work at the train's rail stations doing maintaince,mixing concrete to builtd building,or have them cleaning they own offices or what 'bout have them answering your questions when the phone line is not working & troubleshoot the lines,or prouning the threes at your neighbor before the branches became dangerous because of they weight.
The wealthy needs the poor to make $ & the poor needs the wealthy to own a $ as you,me & 90% of us does.
But when the poor stop spending as they usually do things gets bad,as how we going thru right now,nobody's spending,even the rich people.
I can imagine having donald trump doing the gardering at my backyard for few undeserved $$$$ on a hot summer day.
Unions are important part o the labor world,without it workers will be at corporarions's mercyless greed & abuse practices,but companies do have their business organizations & unions so why not the workers ?
Without unions many workers wouldn'tt have health insurance,gain a better salary or have such rights as sick days or probably retirement plans.
Personally i work for security services company as supervisor,must of the people believes that working in this field doesn't require a lot of "SKILLS" however if i didn't have antiterrorist trainning,customer service skills.didn't knew how to deal with life threatening situation such a providing CPR,how to deal when a building gets on fire & needs to address & evacuates 100's of people within that building,calling for FD & provide then fully report & conditions of the situation on timely while they on the way then i gues i don't deserve to own $ 16 an hour isn't ?
I'm not mad at you,marlin,i believe in freedom of speech & opinions,that's all about democracy & love to have this kind of learning chats,but you ceirtainly missing a piece of the puzzle.
Last edited by Gussie2000 : 03/29/2009 at 07:40 PM
Dakar was just the begining.
Super VXer
Did you guys hear that Rick Wagoner resigned? The initial report was that he was asked by the Obama administration to step down as a condition for receiving government bailout $$$.
IMHO, GM fell apart because (a) a growing percentage of Americans prefer import designs over domestic vehicles, (b) GM made little investment in future technologies until it was too late (selling too many Tahoes while Honda and Toyota were designed hybrids), and (c) so-called "legacy" costs, including retirement and health benefits, made it difficult for GM to price its vehicles competitively without dramatically decreasing profits (read "employee pricing" and "red tag" events).
Of those three reasons, I really think (a) is the biggest problem. Carlos Ghosn took over as CEO of Nissan when it was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2000, and said at the time that "there are no problems a car company can have that can't be solved by good cars." In the first three years of his tenure Nissan created or revamped the 350Z, Altima, Maxima, Murano, Quest, Titan, G35 Sedan/Coupe, M35/45, and FX35/45 (all under the oversight of the VX's chief designer btw), and slashed costs by making hard decisions on reorganizing its supply chain (decades long partnerships were broken to cut costs). Ghosn's management team targeted three years as the timeline to return to profitability, but actually made that target in 18 months. Perhaps most dramatic was the personal accountability that the management team assumed; before they were hired they all signed contracts that required them to resign and return all of their pay if the company wasn't turned around in three years. Come up with better designs, hire better people, and make difficult decisions better and I think GM could be okay.
As for the poor people discussion, my parents taught me to work hard and do the best that I could with what I was given (personally, financially, etc.) For my parents who couldn't make it into a good college, that meant working hard at blue collar jobs and struggling to make ends meet to this day. For me who did have the qualifications to go to a good college, that has meant working hard at much higher paying white collar jobs that afford me a more comfortable financial position. People can't be judged by their economic situation, only on the composition of their personal character and work ethic. In a perfect world those two would be tied together, but unfortunately life doesn't work that way.
Super VXer
Are you kidding?! Have you ever heard of Affirmative Action?! Where you get extra "credit" for being a minority to give you an advantage over the majority!!!
Do you know how many scholarships there are for white males only? None, cause that would be racist and would result in a huge lawsuit.
There are banks in California that received stimulus money because they were "African American" banks not because they were in financial trouble, squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Anyway, your beloved Obama just said the same thing Mccain said a few months ago "Our economy is fundamentally sound". When Mccain said it, Obama threw a fit about how crazy he was, yet a few months in the office, and it is ok that he says it? BS.
As far as Mccain not knowing economy, you are right, good thing the president has to pick cabinet members to take care of that stuff and make recommendations on what to do. Obama is a great judge of character and expertise, seemings how several of his selections have stepped down due to scandals, fraud and so on.
Now, back to the economy. My dad is now part owner of a company, no degree, worked his *** off there for 20 years and they gave him the shares since he had become such an integral part and given so much to the business without being asked.. No union there....ever. They will close the doors before they let that happen. In order to keep good employees, they had to offer competitve salaries and incentives, which is why their company is still around while their competitors are bankrupt. The company with the best workers will win, and the only way to have the best workers is to offer the best incentives. No union needed, if you do not like your job or its benefits.........QUIT!!!!! Suck it up while you can, get some education, training or what not and work your way up. That is the right that every American has.
I think we are not on the same page about what is defined as poor. $16/hr is not even close to poor. Minimum wage is poor. That is why it is called the "minimum". I am the head of household, my wife has a degree, although she does not work out in town but rather works raising our 2 boys, so they will have a better chance at success. I am enlisted in the military, so you know I don't make squat, but we made wise decisions, waiting to have kids till we saved some money, and we knew we were gonna stay together. That would mean by what you guys have proposed, I am poor. We made sacrifices, and it is paying off now and I am living comfortably(hence my Vx). As far as a wealthy person not cleaning their own office, mowing their own lawns and so on, that is why they got educations, so they do not have to do those things. That is why when their peers were getting drunk in highschool, they were the "dorks" that were in band or Physics club. Their success came at a price.
Here is a tidbit I found from Oxford publication:
"The self-employed are the wealthy folks of America. The average net worth of a family where the head of a household works for someone else is $65,000. When it comes to the self-employed, the average net worth is $352,300.
Another interesting wealth statistic: all the wealth in America is concentrated among homeowners (two-thirds of Americans own their own homes). The difference is stunning. The average homeowner’s net worth is $171,700, while the average renter’s net worth is a measly $4,800.
Lastly, it turns out that education is valuable. The net worth where the family head didn’t graduate from high school is only $25,500. Meanwhile, the net worth where the family head has a college degree is $213,300. (Grad. school was not part of the survey.) An investment in a college education could provide a return greater than you could even expect in the stock market!
'The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.' You have heard it a million times. However, my guess is that you have never heard it from the mouth of the 'rich'. Instead, this echo has most likely bounced to your ear with its origins being an excuse. That is right...an excuse. Excuses are what many use to pacify their guilt of not accomplishing what they are capable of."
Almost all of our presidents were self made men. They were children in poor homes, raised by drunken parents or whatever, even Bill Clinton. Obama is the first president to never have had a real job, raised by his wealthy grand-parents, so as far as relating to the normal person, he is the perfect candidate, not the guy who worked his way up in the military from scratch.
I hope Obama does well, not for him, but for the nation, but I would not expect to see our current representatives around much longer. Ultimately, the president really has little power, the real power is in Congress/Senate, where all of the bills and decisions are made. They are the real problem, with all of their pet projects and ridiculous scandals and virtually no repercussions. I would not expect to see many of them make it through the next election. Well, time to get back to work...
Oh, i forgot to mention, I don't watch Fox news, only CNN, so when I do see ridiculous stuff from the liberals, it must be true and not just conservative propaganda. So no more pointing fingers about misrepresented news stories. I also grew up in one of the largest union towns in the US around all the GM workers and steel workers, half my friend's parents didn't even graduate high school, yet they always had nice cars, houses, boats, oh, I forgot to mention, they were union factory workers. Highly skilled at pushing a button on a press, that could have easily been automated and save the company millions of dollars and probably prevented bankruptcy, but the union threw a fit, look where it got them today.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
Super VXer
LOL, another thread I missed until it has properly ripened!
I just quickly browsed all the replies, and I think I kinda understand where Marlin is coming from but maybe the semantics are a little off.
I too have a similar resentment but it isn't a resentment of "poor" people. It is a resentment for damn near an entire nation of lazy slobs who think the world owes them something. I know SO MANY people who think that success and stability is something that you just get. My wife and I spent our 20s busting our butts and sacrificing A LOT of normally taken for granted conveniences (like cable TV, your own laundry room, 2 cars, TEVO, Blackberries, and countless other USELESS EXPENSES every other lower-middle class to poor class family has) to get where we are today. And now we have all these people whining about not having enough money but come to find out they have been living WAY over their means for WAY too long. They DESERVE to feel the bottom fall out. They do not deserve to be bailed out. The hard working people of this country should not have to help all the lazy SOBs out there who refuse to work at McDonalds.
I bet I could go out and find 50 Mexican immigrants today who would be willing to haul 150 pound bags of poop to feed their families. Try to find 50 22 year old American kids who would be willing to work that hard. THAT is the problem with this country.
Yes, there were the "baby boomers" and "x-generation" and the "me generation" and now we have the "spoiled rotten delusional generation".
Bart
Super VXer
I am confused, it is the blue collar worker who spends all the money on products and makes the wealthy successful? So the corporations wouldn't make money if their employees were working for substandard income because they wouldn't be able to afford any of the products. A self controlling industry...huh, free enterprise, such a weird idea!!!. So you definitely do not need the union to fluff salaries. My father in law just retired from Ford in KC,Mo last year, he was a foreman there. They had problems with union folks not working and meeting quotas, and the employees said they were working as hard as they could. The management wanted to put in cameras at worksites just recording the work site/assembly line, not the whole scene, so personal privacy would be maintained to allow them to get rid of some the management to save money. That way, there wouldn't have to be someone watching over your shoulder in order for you to do your job, and the worker would then have proof that they were working their best. A win win for everyone?! You would think, save money on supervisors, no one over your shoulder, proof that you were doin your job....but the union said hell no!!! That wouldn't be fair. Could have been a good deal for all. At he Honda plant in Akron, most of their assembly line is automated and videotaped for quality assurance purposes, and they have no union, and when polled during the GM/Chrysler fiasco, their employees said they wanted nothing to do with a union, they were happy the way things were. My dad's company pays factory workers based on performance. They figured out the average parts per time. If you do better than average, you get paid more, less than average, you get paid less, and no, they do not adjust the average if everyone does better, it is a function over time for adjustments. An incentive to outperform your peers. Once agian, no union needed, and they go through very small amount of employee turnover, most employees have been there at least 5 years.
Super VXer
My neighbors kid won't mow lawns in the summer. It's too hot, and 15 bucks isn't enough. His parents will give him money if he needs it. Takes me about 45 minutes to mow, edge and weed eat. Thats 20 bucks an hour, and he won't do it. That, folks, is our future, World of Warcraft, if there was lawnmowing in that, he would do it for 50 goldI bet I could go out and find 50 Mexican immigrants today who would be willing to haul 150 pound bags of poop to feed their families. Try to find 50 22 year old American kids who would be willing to work that hard. THAT is the problem with this country.
Super VXer
Dude, you couldn't be righter. It's sooo sad. My younger brother (who turns 24 this year mind you) is a textbook WoW kid. I am honestly really quite worried about his health. He was a really handsom looking dude, until about 3 years ago. WoW claimed his body and mind (oh wait, and weed). He is now GROSSLY overweight, has NO COLLEGE education, and very little work experience. I hate to say it but he is the laziest person I know, and he is my brother. I would love to help him but I refuse to help those who do not help themselves first. At this point I am simply worried about him. If he keeps going the way he is going until 30, he is gonna be really sick. And this all stems from excessive parental guilt and continued spoiling and coddling. He has been handed everything on a silver platter since he was 12 years old. But now he is a grown man and their is no excuse. Sad, just sad. I hate seeing my family as part of this problem.My neighbors kid won't mow lawns in the summer. It's too hot, and 15 bucks isn't enough. His parents will give him money if he needs it. Takes me about 45 minutes to mow, edge and weed eat. Thats 20 bucks an hour, and he won't do it. That, folks, is our future, World of Warcraft, if there was lawnmowing in that, he would do it for 50 gold
Bart
Super VXer
huh, thats interesting...how come as people get older they always think the people younger than them are more stupid or treated differently then THEY were when they were children....maybe because america is full of hypocrits?
Yes, there were the "baby boomers" and "x-generation" and the "me generation" and now we have the "spoiled rotten delusional generation".
Super VXer
One of the reasons i reject buying any american made car is due an experiance i had last year when my VX was at the shop because a little tapping,the dealer hand me a 2004 dodge stratus as a rental But what a unlikely surprise I came across with,a car buildt in the 21rst century had no dome light included in the vehicule's standart features,to me that is insulting & unacceptable,having in consideration that the car's brand new price tag that year was $ 17K,the dashboard & radio's design still from the earlier 90's & interior very cheappy looking.Yet stil my younger sis went to a toyota dealer looking at the very 2007 yaris around may month & if you asked me i answered yes,the little chep yaris priced for just 11K had dome light + WMA MP3 capable-full digital radio.American car manufactures not only needs to redesign their vehicule,but also the way the do business.
Super VXer
Jack, I never said younger people were stupid. And obviously not EVERY SINGLE KID in America today is a spoiled brat that isn't willing to work. Hell, I know plenty of 35 year olds that are that way! I was just saying that there is a growing trend of entitlement in this country. Like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of kids out there today that being raised right, going to school, getting good jobs, etc.
What do you mean by treated differently? I don't really think kids are treated differently. However I do think they are exposed to a lot of different things today that may be shaping their points of view. I think TV and the media play a big part in this, and I definitely believe proper parenting has gone by the wayside in the last 20 years. Teenage kids are growing up on Rob & Big and Real Housewives and this is what they think life is about. Not busting tail and working hard. Sure, my grandfather said the same thing about the children of the 1980s, and you know, he was right. Things were changing, and changing for the worse. And things today are still changing, and still getting worse.
Bart
Super VXer
this is what scares the crap outta me with my own generation...how many kids are absolutely addicted to these games that RUIN lives...its been proven to cause divorces and families to fall apart...and in this way there is some laziness in my generation...
however, bart, look at your generation (i think your in your 30's right?), and marlin im not sure how old you are, but if you were a child/teenager/college kid during the 70's...try to tell me that the generations that came out of the 70's were not completely *&#$ed...
i would much rather have a lazy generation that has to learn the hard way that they need to work than to have a generation who is forever ruined by drugs...
hmm, definately seems to be easier to criticize a younger generation once you have done your own stupid actions huh?
and no, im not saying that either of you did drugs and ruined your own future (which i assume neither of you did judging by how intelligent you gentlemen are), however, there are many from that generation that DID ruin their lives with drugs...
now look at my generation, yes their are some lazy people, but at the same time, we are the most technologically intelligent generation EVER, and that may be attributed to the 'laziness'....so dont generalize that ALL young people are lazy...
and at the same time, sometimes things that negative, turn out to be positive
Super VXer
Everybody is so touchy today! I thought everybody born after 1980 was in trouble.Everything has been dumbed-down. Most highschool grads can't do simple math or read above a 5th grade level.Cuts in education and zero attention span(from video games) are part of the problem.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Chi Dog...Dog is my Co-pilot
Onward thru the fog
Leave it BETTER than you found it!
Super VXer
Yes, I am 33. I dunno, I think to generalize that kids growing up in the 70s were all druggies is just as bad. Sure, in high school and college I did *ahem* experiment a tad, but I never let that crap get the best of me. And after college was over I never looked back. Now, take a look at BOTH my brothers. One is 24 (as mentioned above) and the other is 31. You already heard the story about the 24 year old, and the 31 year old is only half better. His 20s were spent partying hard, and not building his future. And now, BAM, he realizes that life ISN'T a non-stop party, and he is paying for it now.this is what scares the crap outta me with my own generation...how many kids are absolutely addicted to these games that RUIN lives...its been proven to cause divorces and families to fall apart...and in this way there is some laziness in my generation...
however, bart, look at your generation (i think your in your 30's right?), and marlin im not sure how old you are, but if you were a child/teenager/college kid during the 70's...try to tell me that the generations that came out of the 70's were not completely *&#$ed...
i would much rather have a lazy generation that has to learn the hard way that they need to work than to have a generation who is forever ruined by drugs...
hmm, definately seems to be easier to criticize a younger generation once you have done your own stupid actions huh?
and no, im not saying that either of you did drugs and ruined your own future (which i assume neither of you did judging by how intelligent you gentlemen are), however, there are many from that generation that DID ruin their lives with drugs...
now look at my generation, yes their are some lazy people, but at the same time, we are the most technologically intelligent generation EVER, and that may be attributed to the 'laziness'....so dont generalize that ALL young people are lazy...
and at the same time, sometimes things that negative, turn out to be positive
As always, you can't simply lump everyone into a certain stereo type. All I am saying is that there is a trend among younger generations that I see. And again, it isn't everyone, of course. Furthermore, while I do believe it is a growing trend among younger people, there are still LOADS of older people (late 20s, early 30s) that are just as bad.
Realistically speaking, most of what I am talking about has to do with the way that our family structure has changed over the last few decades. Both parents working, often divorced, etc. Kids are not raised today the same as they were 15 years ago. Sure, some parents strive to give their children that same childhood, but in most cases, it is simply not the same.
For example, when I was 8 years old, I got on my bike (no helmet either) and I was left to my own devices ALL DAY. I would ride out, COMPLETELY FREE, to do whatever I wanted. I might have had $5 in my pocket I earned by mowing the lawn and doing my chores. Maybe I could get some Big League Chew and a comic book that weekend. My parents NEVER worried about me, as long as I was home for dinner. Today, parents are UBER PARANOID about safety. Kids are constantly brought up with more fear and less independence. They are brought up by the TV and the XBOX. (what is more harmful? Growing up a couch potato with no real understanding of the world or the remote possibility of falling out of a tree and breaking an arm or worse, getting kidnapped?) Again Jack, this is not everyone out there, but you know what I am getting at.
I grew up with complete independence. Video games and TV were the BOTTOM of the barrel when it comes to entertainment. That is what I did when it was pouring rain. Otherwise I was out, exploring, catching snakes, falling in creeks, jumping my bike and climbing trees, and most importantly, having true freedom and gaining valuable life lessons that video games and MTV simply do not provide. Kids today are either too fat and lazy to do those things or they are simply forbidden to have that kind of freedom, which is almost worse and even more depressing. My youngest brother grew up on the couch playing Final Fantasy. He DID NOT have the same childhood I had, not even close.
Know what I am saying? Don't think I am saying YOU are a lazy, stupid, spoiled kid...cause I'm not!!
Bart
Super VXer
Ok, first off, the 40 million people x $1 million each comes out to $40 TRILLION dollars.
That don't work.
Next, on the subject of union bashing, maybe we should abandon what unions gave lives for and go back to child labor, 16 or more hour work days, and work 6 or more days a week mandatory with zero benefits, no worker safety laws and live in the company town, in company housing that you will be charged for, and buy from the company store ending up with little or no savings. That is if they will hire you based on your ethnicity. Businesses routinely hired Pinkertons and other private security to beat and kill union organizers while police stood idly by. Now they have the police and national guard doing that job on occasion.
I hope nobody believes that businesses gave anything to unions out of the goodness of their heart. Everything is negotiated. A general way of putting it is that both parties give things up to reach a settlement. Now the Administration wants the UAW workers to give up wages that they negotiated while keeping businesses' side of the negotiations intact. NOT FAIR! And is it fair that UAW workers should reduce their standard of living to match that of a semi-literate former dung farmer, south of the mason-dixon line who THINKS he won the lottery because a foreign owned company is paying half of what he should be making?
The only reason non-union offer any benefits at all is because they are so scared of the employees having an EQUAL seat at the table, they match their benefits to what...? They usually match, but rarely exceed what the union would offer.
How is it that until the decline in unionism, early 70's, That one man could support a family without the wife or kids having to work? A lot of so-called "skilled workers" conveniently forget that they got their college education through union employed parents paying the bill. THE UNIONS OFFER A MAN OR WOMAN A DECENT STANDARD OF LIVING and EQUAL REPRESENTATION and PAY!!!. That is what it is about.
Now with the decline in unions, corporate greed dictates what benefits are cut or eliminated, as well as the threat of H1-B visa foreign workers competing for your job (at a lower wage, of course) and pay inequity between the sexes.
Another oversight in the blame game is that there is no major difference between a UNION and a "professional" ASSOCIATION . You know , like the American MEDICAL or BAR Association. Nobody is complaining about their rules preventing foreign lawers or doctors practicing in this country for less. You just have to go to their country to get the same proceedure and with the savings, you can take a nice vacation too. If any business could have a foreign worker do your job here and do it for less, they would do it in a heartbeat.
Over the last 20 to 30 years, unions and blue collar jobs have been torndown in general, by PRO-BUSINESS administrations. Look where that has got us now. The businesses said they had to move production overseas due to labor costs , but did they ever reduce prices after paying sweatshop and child labor pennies on the dollar? No, and now we have been tricked into lowering our standard of living in order to compete with the GLOBAL ECONOMY.
Why is it that for almost 20 years congress would not raise the minimum wage, even if just to match inflation, but they have no problem giving themselves raises AND cost of living increases? The businesses that own the politicians would not allow it. Even our politicians are so elitist that some of them, like McCain think the MIDDLE-CLASS is annual income up to "$5 MILLION". What a joke. Politicians should make no more annual income than the average of their constituency. Include insurance and pension too. That would bring them back to reality pretty quick.
What is the difference between a person who works for minimum wage or is at the poverty level and an inmate in a jail? Well, taxpayers spend about $60,000 dollars per inmate per year to support the inmate. Who's the sucker in this scenario?
Not all union workers "push buttons" all day long and when you see a union worker working outside in the nice weather and think "that's easy", just remember he's doing the same job when it's 20 degrees or colder with wind chill and or in other unfavorable weather or on the top deck of a high rise building.
Long story short, The businesses BUY (access to) Politicians who screw the rapidly vanishing , true middle class. Look how many politicians received big contributions from AIG and the other financials. Just like the politicians involved in the banking crisis of the 70's (like JOHN McCAIN, who got a slap on the wrist for influence peddling for the financial organizations. It's an eye opener, but as always businesses can afford to ..um
INFLUENCE politicians, can you as an individual afford the same?
Rant off.
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