HHO Generator (Gas mileage thread)

[crager34]

It's been interesting to see where this thread went, and I was very surprised at the idea having freemelabs banned from here, which he shouldn't. I would like to say that I didn't invite him here and not sure how he did get here, but I do appreciate his getting involved. I have also agree to work with Kirk and see if this is a viable option for better MPG and if it's not, he promised to refund my money and actually told me to post all results, even negative.

I have seen articles that show this works, and others touting snake oil and it would seem that the best way to find out is through personal experience.

I will keep everyone posted.



Remember Galileo Galilei

[Hotsauce]

In order to get more consistant test results I would propose that the ECU be reset before both mileage runs.

Same gas from same station, and same pump so that that full is the same in all cases.

John C.

[LittleBeast]

Yeah... Some some strict controls need to be installed to get as accurate a test as possible.

Kurt and crager thanks for working together on this, I am excited to see the results!

But as we all know driver style (heavy foot/slow acceleration) and location (hwy/city) have more of an impact on mileage than almost anything else, so unless there are huge differences I still say it is possible that most positive results are placebo effect (aka high hopes = slow acceleration = better mpg).

[etlsport]

But as we all know driver style (heavy foot/slow acceleration) and location (hwy/city) have more of an impact on mileage than almost anything else, so unless there are huge differences I still say it is possible that most positive results are placebo effect (aka high hopes = slow acceleration = better mpg).

its true.. i was in a very relaxed mood today.. my trip home i averaged 18.3mpg according to the scangauge (which has been dead on accurate to the .1 gallon over a full tank for the last 6 months) and on other days i am as low as 12.5mpg on that same trip

[crager34]

In order to get more consistant test results I would propose that the ECU be reset before both mileage runs.

Same gas from same station, and same pump so that that full is the same in all cases.

John C.

This is a good idea and for those who have been to Moab, it won't be hard to accomplish this. If there are other suggestions I am happy to hear them.

BTW - I am the QA/Compliance oversight for this DOE project out here and it's my job to be un-biased in every situation (I don't make many friends). It's my job to see that the taxpayers are getting a good product for the $98 million dollars estimated to be spent out here moving this dirt. In short - my reports will be honest and unbiased to Freemelabs and the VX community.

Darrin

[taylorRichie]

I'm anxiously awaiting the results...

I know Darrin won't be pushing false info on us... Doesn't seem in his character, Not that I know him extremely well, but I wouldn't think so.

And as far as driving style effect MPGs... Doesn't really matter as long as the same person is doing the before and after, and they're consistent in their driving style.

I'm very skeptical, but also open minded, I don't know it all, but I DO know that our engines are extremely inefficient at Burning fuel, so If it takes some energy to make our engine more efficiently burn fuel, there is a certain point where it's plausible.

Turbos, and superchargers do the same... It takes energy to turn the pulley on a supercharger, but the energy it takes is less than the energy produced, on a turbo same deal, it takes energy to push the turbine on the exhaust, but it's more efficient at taking that energy and multiplying it.

So I say Plausible

[twistedsymphony]

Turbos, and superchargers do the same... It takes energy to turn the pulley on a supercharger, but the energy it takes is less than the energy produced, on a turbo same deal, it takes energy to push the turbine on the exhaust, but it's more efficient at taking that energy and multiplying it.

'chargers themselves don't actually produce energy.

air+gas+ignition(spark) = energy released from the air+gas

pumping more gas into the engine is easy, just install a bigger pump...

normally aspirated engines suck in the air on their own. 'chargers are nothing more than an air pump so we can cram more air in the engine so that we can pump more gas in the engine and get more energy in the end.

bigger engine make more power because they have more air and gas going into them... 'charged vehicles make more power for the same reason.

No joke, you could strap a leaf blower to your intake and your car will make more power, and this actually works, because it acts like an air pump the same way a turbo or supercharger does.

chargers take energy to run, but so does any pump... but you're still getting your energy from gas+air though... the energy lost running your "air pump" is much much smaller than the energy you get from the air your sucking in and the additional gas that lets you burn.

....

The concept of HHO generation is that the energy comes from the water, the problem is that when burned the same way we burn gas and air, it produces less energy, not only that the process of electrolysis is like having a mini-refinery in your car to convert the energy in the water into a more usable form.

The reason, from a scientific stand point, that this concept is bankrupt is that water in it's natural form... doesn't contain any energy. by performing electrolysis you're putting energy into it, and then you're taking that energy back out once it hits your engine... The problem is that when you put energy into it only about 70% makes it into hydrogen (the rest is lost to heat and other natual losses that come from any energy conversion), and when you burn it in your engine only about 40% of THAT gets turned into energy at the crank (again the rest lost to heat, friction, etc.).

It's analogous to installing a 2nd empty gas tank in your car that only gets gas in it by stealing gas from your normal tank... except it spills most of the gas it's stealing in the process. The only difference is that it's stealing in the form of electrical energy, giving it back to you in the form of air energy and spilling it in the form of heat energy.

The idea that your "alternator produces unused energy" is foolish as well. Most of the accessories are designed to only produce the energy they need, when they need it. Do a test for me the next time you start your car while your parked. Pull the wheel quickly in one direction and watch the RPMs... you'll see them blip up, this is because the power steering pump is only drawing energy from your motor when it needs it. Turn on your AC while you're parked and idling and you'll see the RPMs rise too... Your alternator is no different, if you were to flip on all your lights, crank your stereo and run some power hungry device from the cigarette lighter while you rolled down all your windows at the same time you'd see the RPMs increase slightly as well while it adapts to the load and strains the engine harder.

Even if the theory of the over productive alternator were true, don't you think a better method for recycling that energy would be to hook up an electric helper motor, since electric motors are the most efficient way to convert electrical energy into mechanical energy... or even just simply installing a smaller alternator that's not as wasteful... or if either of those were viable solutions to an existing problem that auto makers would be using them...

....

All in all I'm very interested in seeing the results of this test... I'd really like to see pictures of the install and if possible engine data as well particularly air/fuel and O2 sensor readings.

[crager34]

Not really much of one, but the unit was purchased today and hope to have it in and working by next weekend.

Darrin

[Hotsauce]

Lets do some practical math.

This thing costs $400.

To make the math easy, lets put gas at $4/gallon. So the thing costs 100 gallons of gas.

Lets pretend for a moment that it really works(Crackdream®), and works so well that it increases mileage by 10%

If you are getting 20 miles per gallon, it would take 20,000 miles just to reach the break even point. 2-3 years for the average driver just to be back to zero.

John C.

[Hotsauce]

10% is an arbitrary figure. There isn't going to be any improvement.

I used it as a what-if to show how long it would take to pay back something that actually worked.

Every engine maker in the world would be all over this if it worked.

I've sat in on literally thousands of pulls on an engine dyno. There is no free lunch.

John C.

[crager34]

Some wierd kook of a guy spent the last 7 years of his life in house arrest because he thought the world was round.

Who'd a thunk it!!


Just sit back and wait and see. I am the one spending the money, time, and effort, to prove all you people who say it won't work RIGHT!! And all you people that say it will work RIGHT!!

[TechnoPope]

These units must be gaining in popularity. I am starting to get calls about them at my EPA office. Darrin, I look forward to reading about your experience.

[Daveh]

So what were the results of the HHO Generator Crager34 was testing?
It's been over a month now, they can't be that hard to install and test.

[crager34]

So what were the results of the HHO Generator Crager34 was testing?
It's been over a month now, they can't be that hard to install and test.

Sorry for the delay, but here is the update. The unit comes in two configurations: 1. As one unit. 2. As two units.

I bought number one and found it isn't mountable in the engine bay, so working with freemelabs I will be getting the other model/unit soon. In short, not installed yet and no tests done. This isn't because they are difficult to install, rather, work related issues and some personal issues have come up that has kept me traveling every weekend. I still promise to do all this, but it has to be when it's convenient for me. Again... sorry for the delay.

[crager34]

At this point I am thinking lesson learned and I am out a few hundred dollars. The first unit wouldn't fit, so I requested their other one which I received, but one of the plastic (red flag) bolts was sheered. I asked for a replacement and was told they were working on it.

In short..... never been installed... have no data. Still hopefull someday, but not counting on it.

Sorry