4000

[tom4bren]

"we had Sadaam bottled up for 15 years.....he could not do anything in his own country without our knowledge."

Then why didn't we know where every mass grave and every weapon cache was located?

"You have to admit every arguement this administration has given us of why we are there has not been true."

To the best of my knowlege there was only the one reason ... WMD. Why would you assume that we were duped? We were mistaken, there's no doubt about it. Saddam took perverse pride in admitting that he intentionally misled the coalition forces about the existence of WMDs. I was fully convinced they were there too. I was wrong and I honestly believe that our Government was too.

"W estill haven't got Bin Laiden"

Ever stop to think that it's infinitely more effective to keep him contained than it is to create a martyr (sp?).

"GWB has been more detrimental to the United States than Saddam had been to Iraq.He has been more detrimental to Iraq than Saddam too."

Please provide the basis for this comment - it makes no sense to me. Or you using an exageration to add credence to your other false assumptions?

"There is no direct link to Osama and Iraq..."

I never said there was. I said that Iraq was a terrorist hotbed & you agreed ("They strap bombs to women and kids in the name of religion."). Thanks for supporting my point.

"Don't spout off about the Kurd mustard gas massacre because that happened before W's fathers term and nothing was done about it then."

But it was done and it was done by Saddam. You're just supporting the fact that we should have gone in ... we should have gone in sooner.

"I think your party affiliation is duping you."

Possibly. Unfortunately you have failed to convince me of that. I believe that 'my party' was mistaken as was I & so was Colin Powell. It wasn't a lie or a fabricated excuse. We were intentionally misled by Saddam.

"It's just Afghanastan dose not have the worlds richest oil reserve under it's heroin poppys."

That's paid out for us quite well now hasn't it.

[tomdietrying]

Why don't you open your eyes? We were not mislead by Saadam. We were misled by this administration, and we are still being mislead. You have been lied to, yet you make an excuse why it is not a lie. If Bush was a CEO of a company, he would already have his walking papers. The problem is Bush is SO MUCH MORE than a CEO, and created so many more problems than a CEO could ever do.

Peace.
Tom
012009

[tom4bren]

"Why don't you open your eyes?"

Maybe I choose not to. I lead a much happier life if I don't continually assume that the world is out to get me. So far my approach has worked out quite well for me. In my life I have taken many chances where I rely on the honesty of others and it is on rare occasion that I am disappointed. So I give the American political machine the same favor. If Obama or Clinton gets in office I'm prepared to have them make my life a living hell at work since I work for the Army but in general, I will put my trust in them just as I did for Bush.

Lets just agree to disagree since I won't convince you & you won't convince me on this particular topic. 'Sides, Y'all are giving me a headache making me think too much

[tomdietrying]

Ignorance is Bliss. That's the simpletons way.
Peace.
Tom
012009

[tom4bren]

Put a smiley after you say that Bub.

See, I trust that was your intent ... you weren't looking to piss me off.

Gotta run & burn up a little of all that Iraqui oil we won in the war.

G'nite

[PHO2GR4]

Weird how quickly these threads can divide us.

I bought my VX purely for pleasure. I come to this board for the camaraderie and friendship...for the VX discussions...for the jokes and laughter.

Yes, it can be a serious world out there. Yes, these are important issues. But is this really the best forum for discussion out there? Aren't there plenty of other websites and blogs made specifically for that purpose?

I dunno...it's just my opinion, which is as worthless as anyone else's. On one hand, I claim that this VX website isn't the best place for heated political debate, but on the other hand here I am making a post in this thread.

The thing is, I already know that nobody cares about my opinion on the war. Nobody cares about ANY VX owner's opinion on the war. It's far too complex to even bother discussing in a few paragraphs. I mean, honestly, how many opinions are there?

1) Are you FOR the war? Is anyone truly "for" war? Is there such a thing as a "good" war, and if so, is this Iraq thingie a really "good" war? It's a friggen' mess, is what it is. And none of us...not you, or you, or you, or me...NONE of us has the teeniest idea of the true complexity of that situation. Genocide? Probably. WMD's? Maybe. Just because Saddam didn't wheel them out to show us doesn't mean they weren't there. Oil money? Maybe. Favorable contracts to Bush's pals? Perhaps. Space aliens? Hmmm...No more wacky than Muslims and Christians killing each other in any God's name.

2) Are you AGAINST the war? Hey, good for you for taking the high moral ground. You're such a brave soul for coming out against killing. So risky! So 'out there'! Wooooo hoooo. Are you also in favor of puppies and candy and love? Are you pro-good and anti-bad? Wow. NPR thanks you for your support. Keep on livin' on the edge, you radical.

I'm not trying to make light of the war. I'm just saying that this is a VX forum, and I really doubt that ANY of us in here, who CHOOSE TO DRIVE THESE OBSCENE GAS GUZZLERS, can truly claim to be experts on why this war was or was not necessary.

Having said all of that, I want to thank each and every one of you who have contributed to the knowledge base of these wonderfully fun vehicles. And props to those of you who are anti-war and anti-killing AND have found a practical way to get your VX running on tap water instead of $3.50/gallon unleaded regular fuel. Please post those instructions ASAP for the rest of us!

(Note: this post was made with tongue planted sort of firmly in cheek. Hence the "Smilies" sprinkled throughout.) :bwgr:

[Joe_Black]

Great post Pho2gr4! I admin two separate forums much like this for collectors and enthusiasts of vintage Caterpillar equipment, and the political discussions there are most notable for not being particularly divisive. Most of the folk into that particular hobby are generally cut from the same cloth, which is very interesting considering the international nature of our 4000+ membership.

Here, very different. The VehiCROSS really spans a very broad spectrum across the demographic, which is why I typically stay out of the religion/politics discussions. I know I stepped in here, but my views are usually radical enough to keep most at bay. But as mentioned this isn't the best board to to engage in such ponderings without a thick hide and an open mind. :bgwg:

[nfpgasmask]

Weird how quickly these threads can divide us.

I bought my VX purely for pleasure. I come to this board for the camaraderie and friendship...for the VX discussions...for the jokes and laughter.

Yes, it can be a serious world out there. Yes, these are important issues. But is this really the best forum for discussion out there? Aren't there plenty of other websites and blogs made specifically for that purpose?

I dunno...it's just my opinion, which is as worthless as anyone else's. On one hand, I claim that this VX website isn't the best place for heated political debate, but on the other hand here I am making a post in this thread.

The thing is, I already know that nobody cares about my opinion on the war. Nobody cares about ANY VX owner's opinion on the war. It's far too complex to even bother discussing in a few paragraphs. I mean, honestly, how many opinions are there?

1) Are you FOR the war? Is anyone truly "for" war? Is there such a thing as a "good" war, and if so, is this Iraq thingie a really "good" war? It's a friggen' mess, is what it is. And none of us...not you, or you, or you, or me...NONE of us has the teeniest idea of the true complexity of that situation. Genocide? Probably. WMD's? Maybe. Just because Saddam didn't wheel them out to show us doesn't mean they weren't there. Oil money? Maybe. Favorable contracts to Bush's pals? Perhaps. Space aliens? Hmmm...No more wacky than Muslims and Christians killing each other in any God's name.

2) Are you AGAINST the war? Hey, good for you for taking the high moral ground. You're such a brave soul for coming out against killing. So risky! So 'out there'! Wooooo hoooo. Are you also in favor of puppies and candy and love? Are you pro-good and anti-bad? Wow. NPR thanks you for your support. Keep on livin' on the edge, you radical.

I'm not trying to make light of the war. I'm just saying that this is a VX forum, and I really doubt that ANY of us in here, who CHOOSE TO DRIVE THESE OBSCENE GAS GUZZLERS, can truly claim to be experts on why this war was or was not necessary.

Having said all of that, I want to thank each and every one of you who have contributed to the knowledge base of these wonderfully fun vehicles. And props to those of you who are anti-war and anti-killing AND have found a practical way to get your VX running on tap water instead of $3.50/gallon unleaded regular fuel. Please post those instructions ASAP for the rest of us!

(Note: this post was made with tongue planted sort of firmly in cheek. Hence the "Smilies" sprinkled throughout.) :bwgr:

Well said, Eric. I agree completely. I have avoided an opinionated response to this thread for those very reasons.

You should come to Moab again this year and hang out!

Bart

[WyrreJ]

"we had Sadaam bottled up for 15 years.....he could not do anything in his own country without our knowledge."

Then why didn't we know where every mass grave and every weapon cache was located?

One day, I got really annoyed at people flinging around the "mass graves" comment and did some research on the topic. Here are some things I found out:

The term "mass graves" as used in Iraq applies to any grave with more than 6 people in it.

So far, only about 5,000 bodies total have actually been found in mass graves in Iraq.

The four largest mass graves -- purported, but not proven, to contain a lot more than 5,000 bodies -- were all created early in the 1990s as Saddam massacred people who fought against him in the hope of getting support from the americans.

No significant mass graves, or mass killings of any sort in Iraq had been committed in Iraq for close to a decade before the 2003 invasion and there was absolutely no reason to expect any more to be committed without external provocation.

Americans created mass graves in Iraq too.

To the best of my knowlege there was only the one reason ... WMD. Why would you assume that we were duped? We were mistaken, there's no doubt about it. Saddam took perverse pride in admitting that he intentionally misled the coalition forces about the existence of WMDs. I was fully convinced they were there too. I was wrong and I honestly believe that our Government was too.

I think you will be hard pressed to find actual evidence of Saddam admitting he intentionally misled the coalition forces. But even if he did, that's no excuse -- why should a tin-pot dictator be able to mislead the most powerful nation on earth? In fact, saddam did not mislead us, but the whitehouse did 935 times.

Ever stop to think that it's infinitely more effective to keep [bin Laden] contained than it is to create a martyr (sp?).

Possibly, but that point is moot because he is clearly not contained. He seems to be able to release videos at will and has directed thousands of al-quaeda to Iraq for training.

"There is no direct link to Osama and Iraq..."

I never said there was. I said that Iraq was a terrorist hotbed & you agreed ("They strap bombs to women and kids in the name of religion."). Thanks for supporting my point.

I'll dispute that Iraq WAS a terrorist hotbed. It clearly is NOW, but there is no evidence to suggest that it WAS prior to the 2003 invasion. Saddam and Al-quaeda were completely at odds with each other as his rule was primarily secular and tribal. I'm sure that Saddam had a few 'terrorist training programs' as part of his military, but so do we and so does most every other country, we just call them "special forces" when they are on our side.

"It's just Afghanastan dose not have the worlds richest oil reserve under it's heroin poppys."

That's paid out for us quite well now hasn't it.

It sure has for the oil companies, have you looked at their share prices recently?
Royal Dutch Shell is up over 50% since the invasion, Exxon is up about 150%, Chevron is up about 150%, BP is up over 50%, etc, etc.