Curiosity. It always amazes me how politics and religion can send people on a rant.
Just thinking about the bandwidth issue is all. You're right, as always Ldub.
I do have a choice.
So long folks.
Super VXer
Curiosity. It always amazes me how politics and religion can send people on a rant.
Just thinking about the bandwidth issue is all. You're right, as always Ldub.
I do have a choice.
So long folks.
Sold the VX 11-21-07. It was fun while I had it!
Thanks for all the help.
Super VXer
O my goodness
Super VXer
It always amazes me what you miss when you are away from the forum for a few days!! LOL.
This is all good stuff. I love a good political/religious conversation. People are much more inclined to let 'er rip on a web forum, so you always get some good, well thought out replies, mixed in with some downright irrational flaming!! And it always points out the differences we all share, on a forum we all joined because of our similarities.
I guess what puzzles me to this day, is that most people fail to realize that 99% of everything man-made is utter bull$h1t. People get opinionated and brainwashed but in the end it all means NOTHING. The fact that people take sides and fight for their "beliefs" is awesome, but what I don't get is why people always get so convinced that THEY are RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG.
NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE knows if there is a god. NO ONE knows why we are here, or what the meaning of life is. NO ONE knows if muslims are right, or jews are right, or if christians are right, or if its OK to be gay, or if eating animals is wrong or if there are aliens in our midst or why the hell some VXes burn oil. NO ONE KNOWS AND NO ONE EVER WILL.
So I say, live in the moment, do your best to cause the least impact on the future of life on earth, and believe in NOW. Realize that all strife, turmoil and destruction on this planet is a result of politics, religion, and money, no matter what side you are on. NO ONE is right. NO ONE is wrong. We are just humans here for a short ride in time. There is no solution, it most certainly isn't money and it most certainly isn't Jesus and I don't even know if science will help. People have been around in one form or another for a long time, and not a thing has changed except for the fact that there are a lot more of us and our heads are bumping into one another's more than ever. Everything is happening EXACTLY the way it is supposed to happen. Nothing can be changed.
Bart
Last edited by nfpgasmask : 09/04/2007 at 03:37 PM Reason: mod
Super VXer
Originally Posted by nfpgasmask
It always amazes me what you miss when you are away from the forum for a few days!! LOL.
This is all good stuff. I love a good political/religious conversation. People are much more inclined to let 'er rip on a web forum, so you always get some good, well thought out replies, mixed in with some downright irrational flaming!! And it always points out the differences we all share, on a forum we all joined because of our similarities.
I guess what puzzles me to this day, is that most people fail to realize that 99% of everything man-made is utter bull$h1t. People get opinionated and brainwashed but in the end it all means NOTHING. The fact that people take sides and fight for their "beliefs" is awesome, but what I don't get is why people always get so convinced that THEY are RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG.
NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE knows if there is a god. NO ONE knows why we are here, or what the meaning of life is. NO ONE knows if muslims are right, or jews are right, or if christians are right, or if its OK to be gay, or if eating animals is wrong or if there are aliens in our midst or why the hell some VXes burn oil. NO ONE KNOWS AND NO ONE EVER WILL.
So I say, live in the moment, do your best to cause the least impact on the future of life on earth, and believe in NOW. Realize that all strife, turmoil and destruction on this planet is a result of politics, religion, and money, no matter what side you are on. NO ONE is right. NO ONE is wrong. We are just humans here for a short ride in time. There is no solution, it most certainly isn't money and it most certainly isn't Jesus and I don't even know if science will help. People have been around in one form or another for a long time, and not a thing has changed except for the fact that there are a lot more of us and our heads are bumping into one another's more than ever. Everything is happening EXACTLY that way it is supposed to happen. Nothing can be changed.
well "spoken"! (i do wish SOMEONE would figure out why my VX burns oil though) for real tho i completely agree with what u said.. cheers to that!
"Engineers believe if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet"
Super VXer
Yeah, the burning oil issue is the question of all questions that needs to be answered!!!
well "spoken"! (i do wish SOMEONE would figure out why my VX burns oil though) for real tho i completely agree with what u said.. cheers to that!
Super VXer
A few things:
-W and Lincoln were (are) both Republicans.
-Living off of credit cards does not mean you are rich. Same applies to macroeconomics. Most of the new wealth in the W economy has not gone to you and me, but to the uber-wealthy.
-Jesus was a liberal. Take a cue from Mr. Rogers (a devout Christian and an ordained Minister): God loves everybody just the way you are, even gay people.
-W does not have your best interest at heart. I make more than 95% of Americans and he isn't looking out for me, either.
-More cocaine does not help a cocaine addict kick the habit. Nor does more oil help us kick the oil habit.
-Thou shalt not kill. Killing a man, even a brown one, is not okay to get his land or his oil. His children will be pissed off about it when they grow up.
-You cannot convince me that W is competent by complaining about the Democratic party. Every time someone complains about W, somebody else goes off on a rant ordering the other person to prove that the Democratic party is wonderful.
Nate
Super VXer
Nate: If you make more than 95% of Americans, then you are in fact in the tax bracket. Trust me. Otherwise dont ramble hypocrisy.
Wasabi crunch some numbers on here for facts.
If you dont have numbers and only have finger pointing and name calling, then I suggest you hit the books.
Super VXer
This thread should have been started in Chit Chat, not VX Talk. Got nothing to do with the VX!
Super VXer
the fact of the matter here is that our government is failing on all sides.. The two party system has failed by inevitably becoming completely polarized and unbending.
There needs to be a good round of ***-kicking and head-busting all around. Not one of these politicians remembers what it is like to struggle. So don't be fooled by the "pal" talk.
We need less voter apathy and more public voting about the things that matter.
We also need to outlaw lobbying by corporations. And every damn time the house and senate want a raise, WE should be voting as to whether or not they get it... Every person making minimum wage should be getting to the polls for that one.
This country is run by big business and the new imperialism. Rich begets rich and power begets power... it's lost touch with what we all have been taught that it stands for. period.
I got no use anymore for the neo-cons or the ultra-liberals. What we need is a logical party. One that sits in the middle and puts their head around all the subjects, not just the ones they know will polarize so that they can keep their extreme in power.
If America doesn't learn to come together and create some compromises and look out for our children and friends and neighbors and those who we may not understand as well as those we love dearly we are soon to be in big big trouble.
Arrogance is never pretty in the end.
macintosh man
Super VXer
Wasabi crunch some numbers on here for facts.
If you dont have numbers and only have finger pointing and name calling, then I suggest you hit the books.[/QUOTE]
Here are some Numbers for the bean counters in here...
Cost of Violence in Iraq
• Number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq as of May 1, 2003: 139 [DoD, 6/12/07]
• Number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq: 3,506 [DoD, 6/12/07]
• Number of U.S. service members wounded in Iraq: 25,950 [DoD, 6/12/07]
• Number of wounded in action and unable to return to duty: 11,667 [DoD, 6/12/07]
• Number of U.S. troops killed in May: 127 – the third most deadly month for U.S. troops since the war
began [icasualties.org, 6/12/07]
• Number of U.S. troops killed so far this month (June): 35 [icasualties.org, 6/12/07]
• Percent of U.S. troops killed in Iraq over the past three months who have been casualties of makeshift
explosives: 80 [New York Times, 6/2/07]
• Number of insurgents in Iraq in November 2003: 5,000 [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Number of insurgents in Iraq in March 2007: 70,000 (Sunni only) [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Number of multi-fatality bombings in May 2004: 9 [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Number of multi-fatality bombings in May 2007: 42 [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Estimated number of people killed by multiple fatality bombings since May 2003: 12,830 [Brookings
Institution, 6/7/07]
• Number of civilian casualties in Iraq since U.S.-led invasion: estimates range from 54,000 – 76,500
[Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Average number of daily attacks by insurgents in July 2003: 16 [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Average number of daily attacks by insurgents between November 2006 and February 2007: 149 [Brookings
Institution, 6/7/07]
Cost of the War to American Taxpayers
• Amount appropriated for the Iraq War so far: $476.8 billion
• Approximate amount U.S. currently spending in Iraq per month: $8 billion [CRS, 9/22/06]
• Amount in President Bush’s request for new DOD spending for the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan: $235
billion (including a FY07 supplemental of $93 billion and a FY08 supplemental of $142 billion)
Strain on the Military
• Number of U.S. troops currently in Iraq as of May 2007: 144,202 [CRS, 5/2/07]
• Number of Army soldiers and Marines notified last month of potential deployment to Iraq this fall: 35,000 –
unrelated to the “surge” [MSNBC, 5/11/07]
• Number of U.S. troops that have served more than one tour in Iraq or Afghanistan: 487,377 [DoD, 4./30/07]
• Number of active duty military who have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001: 1.1 million
[DoD, 4/30/07]
• Number of National Guard and Reservists who have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001:
425,179 [DoD, 4/30/07]
• Number of National Guard and Reservists that have served two or more tours since September 2001:
95,344 [DoD, 4/30/07]
• Percent of troops currently deployed who are in the National Guard and Reserves: 21 [DoD, 4/30/07]
• Number of months longer Army troops in Iraq have to serve as a result of a blanket tour extension order
issued by the Pentagon: at least 3 months [Pentagon, 4/11/07]
• Percent of the Army’s available active duty combat brigades that have served at least a 12-month tour in
Iraq or Afghanistan: 100 [Washington Post, 9/14/06]
• Length of average mobilization for Reserve & National Guard members: 18 months [Washington Post, 11/5/06]
• Length of combat tours for Iraqi military: 90 days [Washington Post, 6/2/07]
• Number of active duty or reserve brigades in the U.S. considered “combat ready”: 0 [CSM, 9/22/06]
• Percent of National Guard or Reserve units so poorly equipped they are rated “not ready”: 88 [Washington
Post, 3/2/07]
• Amount of essential equipment the Army National Guard has on-hand here at home: 30% [GAO Testimony,
9/21/06]
• Amount Army needs to repair or replace equipment destroyed/deteriorated in Iraq: $66.1 billion [CBS/AP,
9/25/06]
• Amount of time Army needs to catch up on backlog of equipment repairs generated from Iraq war: 3 years
[ABC News, 2/10/07]
Reconstruction Problems and Lack of Accountability
• Amount Iraqi government says is needed over the next 4 years to rebuild country’s infrastructure: $100
billion [Reuters, 10/31/06]
• Amount of Iraqi reconstruction funds unaccounted for by the Coalition Provisional Authority: $8.8 billion
[Boston Globe, 4/6/06]
• Tons of cash shipped to Iraq in December 2003 and June 2004 under the authority of the U.S.-led
Coalition Provisional Authority: 363 [Reuters, 2/12/07]
• Amount of the $11.8 million worth of U.S.-financed electrical generators at Baghdad airport that are no
longer working: $8.6 million [NYT, 4/29/07]
• Number of hours per day of electricity in Baghdad prior to the war: 16-24 [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Number of hours per day of electricity in Baghdad, May 2007: 5.6 [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Oil production – barrels per day – prior to the war: 2.5 million [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Oil production – barrels per day – June 2007: 2.06 million [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Unemployment rate in Iraq May 2007: estimates range from 25% to 40% [Brookings Institution, 6/7/07]
• Average rate of inflation in Iraq in 2006: 50% [DoD, 3/07]
• Amount the U.S. has allocated to private contractors for reconstruction and rebuilding efforts in Iraq since
the beginning of the war. $50 billion [60 Minutes, 2/12/06]
• Amount of taxpayer dollars squandered by the government in reconstruction contracts according to U.S.
auditors: $10 billion [CNN, 2/15/07]
• Amount of taxpayer money spent by Halliburton that the Defense Contract Audit Agency has deemed
either excessive or insufficiently documented: $1.47 billion [Boston Globe, 6/28/05]
• White House office that helped facilitate a no-bid Iraq reconstruction contract worth $7 billion to
Halliburton: Vice President Cheney [GAO, June 2004]
• Amount Halliburton has received in “cost plus” contracts for Iraq reconstruction: $25.7 billion [House
Oversight and Government Reform Committee, Democratic Staff, 3/07]
• Amount the “virtual pandemic” of corruption costs Iraq each year according to the Special Inspector
General of Iraq Reconstruction: more than $5 billion [Associated Press, 4/30/07]
• Number of weapons bought by the U.S. intended for Iraqi troops that are now missing: 14,030 [SIGIR, 10/29/06]
Terrorism & Weapons of Mass Destruction
• Days since 9/11 attacks that Osama bin Laden has remained free: 2,101 [6/12/07]
• Estimated minimum number of nuclear weapons likely produced by North Korea during the Bush
Administration: 7 [Reuters, 10/26/06]
• Estimated number of centrifuges in Iran’s main nuclear facility producing reactor-grade uranium: 1,300
[New York Times, 5/14/07]
• Percent decrease in funding for the Cooperative Threat Reduction Program to contain loose nuclear
material under the President’s Fiscal Year 2008 budget from 2006: 23 [Armed Forces Journal, 5/07]
Public Opinion
• Percent of Americans who think the country is off on the wrong track: 75 [AP/IPSOS, 6/8/07]
• Percent of Americans who say the war in Iraq is going badly: 76 [New York Times/CBS Poll, 5/24/07]
• Percent of Americans who think the Bush Administration is not meeting the needs of Iraq war veterans
here at home: 70% [WNBC/Marist College, 5/25/07]
Super VXer
Umm... I never said I wasn't in "the tax bracket." Yes, GW has cut my taxes, and yes, I am "in the tax bracket"; I got a bigger tax break than your average guy did.
What makes you think that lowering my taxes now, running up a huge deficit for my children somehow equals a better life? The same as when I go to a store to buy something. The clerk will always try to get me to open a charge account. My answer? NO! I can pay for this item in cash because I have the money. Same goes for our federal budget.
Just because I prefer to pay for things up front instead of financing them doesn't make me a hypocrite.
Mr. President, you want to save me some money? Don't cut my taxes, cut your motherf*&#ing deficit war spending, you idiot!
I will sum this up one more time: Just because I don't have to pay the bill now doesn't mean there is no bill.
My point about my income is not to brag but to point out that Bush is looking out for the uber-wealthy, people that don't actually work for a living. Even some of them aren't duped by Bush's tax cuts; I have a friend who makes $1.5 million a year and hates the guy. Even Donald Trump can't stand Bush, and I'm sure Bush's tax cuts have "saved" him millions for the current year tax return, while Bush's policies put his Manhattan buildings at risk.
I would gladly pay more tax if the Feds would invest in infrastructure, science, R+D, et cetera instead of this stupid war for oil.
Nate
Super VXer
I was wordering how long it was gonna take, for someone to get their fragile sensibilities injured, and go stomping off, slamming the door behind them.I'm with the "Mask", this has been a fun thread. I love it when some one huffs 'n puffs 'n turns all red. My uncle says Buddists are pretty cool...but then, he would play quaits all day, wearing only sandals and the Miller can that was permanently affixed to his left hand.He eventually married a big, fat girl, and had three kids and a train set in his basement
Last edited by Chopper : 09/04/2007 at 11:07 AM
Super VXer
In order to say: "No one is right. No one is wrong." logically you yourself would have to have perfect knowledge of what is right and wrong to say this with finality, and I don't think you would say that at all. It is just like saying all religions have a little bit of the truth but none knows exactly who God is, but in order to make that statement you would have to have a perfect knowledge of God to say that. Basically in other words if you say something like: "NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE knows if there is a god. NO ONE knows why we are here, or what the meaning of life is. NO ONE knows if muslims are right, or jews are right, or if christians are right, or if its OK to be gay, or if eating animals is wrong or if there are aliens in our midst or why the hell some VXes burn oil." Then you yourself would have to know the real answers to these questions perfectly in order to say that no one else's answers are correct. I don't know if you are aware of this Bart but your views are exactly in line with what has been happening in this country for the last 80 years or so. This belief system that you seem to maybe adhere to has actually been so popular that it now has its own name. Secular humanism. Basically as you stated "live in the moment, do your best to cause the least impact on the future of life on earth, and believe in NOW." If I could summarize the secular humanism view not necessarily your words or your own view (only you can do that), but this prevailing thought in America today it would simply be to say: "As a human I should get all I can (while I can), can all I get, and sit on the can, that is the highest calling for man, because after all there is no solution, no one is right and no one is wrong there is no absolute truth." I respect your views and the secular humanism views because we as a country have been so psychologically focused for the last 80 years or so, trying to find your own personal peace inside of you picking and choosing to believe or not believe anything and no one can tell me I am wrong, that this secular humanism is obviously the end of this road. I had a presentation to a class of high school students recently on this subject where I was allowed to give my point of view on this and I would like to share it with you. Remember I am not trying to tell you that you are wrong and I welcome your comments, but I would like to give my point of view. I do not expect you to agree with many of the things I discuss, but I only want to present my own beliefs on this matter. Because I think we all deal with these types of questions. In fact I think we all ask and answer 4 basic questions as humans and I will only cut and paste a section of my presentation that addresses these 4 questions. You should probably only read if you really want to see my point of view, if not no biggie it is a lot of reading I understand completely.
"I believe there are 4 basic questions that we all ask and we all answer depending on our view of the world around us. I believe these questions are so basic and common to mankind that they reach across ages and languages. These questions are common to all peoples. I believe they are part of the eternity that God placed upon our hearts (Ecc) so that we would not be content and fulfilled with anything short of a relationship with an eternal God. We must be very careful how we answer these questions because it will determine how effective we are in leading and where we are leading. Each of the two world views I mentioned earlier answers these questions differently.
Four Questions Everybody Asks
Question #1: Who Am I? What is my nature, my essence?
Question #2: Why Am I Here? What is my goal, my purpose?
Question #3: What Is Wrong with the World? Because obviously something is wrong.
Question #4: How Can What’s Wrong Be Made Right? Because living in a world where they cannot be made right is unthinkable and unlivable.
This is in the soul of every person to wrestle with these questions.
1st lets answer these questions from the perspective of our culture. What is the secular humanistic answer to these questions? Then we will look at Colossians to show us the Christian answer to these questions.
Question #1: Who Am I?
You are nothing, an accident, a mistake, a glorified ape, the result of random evolutionary processes, no rhyme, no reason, and no purpose that is all you are.
Question #2: Why Am I Here?
You are here to consume and enjoy, get all you can, can all you get, and sit on the can. How much money would be enough? A little bit more always a little bit more.
Put these two together and this is a lethal combination. Well, if we are really just a random mistake and we are here to consume and enjoy then I need to maximize my consuming and enjoying and no one better get in my way because after all they are nothing anyways. This is the same line of thought that sees an unborn baby as an inconvenient lump of flesh or worse this child will be severely deformed and will hinder your ability to consume and enjoy. Or even worse you are old and feeble, the end is near, you not only have a right to die, but a duty to die, we can give you a pill and your children will not have to take care of you anymore and they can consume and enjoy better. In this secular humanism world view, Who am I? I am nothing. Why am I here? To make the most of it, to consume and enjoy while I can.
Question #3: What Is Wrong with the World?
People are either insufficiently educated or insufficiently governed. People either don’t know enough or they are not being watched enough.
Question #4: How Can What’s Wrong Be Made Right?
More education. More government. Teach people more stuff. The only problem with this is? If you take a sinful murderous human being and educate them, they only become more sophisticated in their ability to destroy. Well then we need to govern them more. Really? Who is governing the governors?
These answers leave those who adhere to this philosophy wanting and empty and lacking.
How then do we respond?
Christian Theistic answers to these answers:
Question #1: Who Am I?
The crowning glory of the creation of God.
Colossians 1:15-17 (New American Standard Bible)
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.”
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”, Genesis 1:26 “Let us make man in our image and our likeness.”
Question #2: Why Am I Here?
To bring glory and honor to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)
“all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.”
Question #3: What Is Wrong with the World?
Me and everyone like me, who refuse to acknowledge the supremacy of Jesus Christ and live in the pursuit of self.
Colossians 1:19-21 (New American Standard Bible)
“For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,”
Question #4: How Can What’s Wrong Be Made Right?
Through the penal, substitutionary, atoning death of the Son of God, and through repentance and faith on the part of sinners.
Colossians 1:22-23 (New American Standard Bible)
“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
Our culture (secular humanism) leaves people empty and hopeless, man is left worthless, left to pursue our own satisfaction and never find it.
With Christ (Christian theism) we are seen as precious, we have a purpose, we are powerless but it is ok because we were purchased.
What is the difference in how we are to lead as Christians and how believers in other religions are leading. Well, it helps to remember that basically in every other religion in the world you need to have a religious experience, and after that you need to do everything in your power to do more good than bad. That experience and how the good and bad are done may be a little different across religions, but this is basically every religion outside of Christianity.
There are 3 problems with this:
-We can’t be good, we can try but we can’t do it, we are totally radically depraved, even when we do things that look to be good they are for the wrong motives.
-What about all the things we did before this religious experience?
-Where is the assurance?
What is more important how you start something or how you finish it? In the decathlon what is more important my standing after the first event or the last event? In a race what is most important your position at the beginning of the race or at the end? In high school what is most important your class rank your freshman year or your senior year? In a football game what is most important the score after the 1st quarter or the score at the end of the game? In our Christian Walk what is more important when and how it started or how we continued until the end? In our Christian Walk what is more important when and how we started following in such a way to deserve followers or if we continue to do so until the very end? If we live our Christian lives pointing back to a time that we prayed a prayer or a time when we felt close to God, yet do not currently experience a walk with Him today, where are we leading? What are we following today if all our hope is in an event in the past? A great leader continues to follow Christ all the way to the end.
Hebrews 4:13
“We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Colossians 1:22-23
“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard”
I am sorry this is so long, and thanks to any who actually read this. I respect all of your points of view and all of your amazing senses of humor, I hope that this made you think in some way and I really do care about all of you and I hope and pray that you all find happiness and hope in some belief, because we all have beliefs and trust in something or someone whether we know it or not.
Your VX brother,
Ryan H
USA Decathlon Team
Super VXer
I think you completely missed the point. The reason he knows that no one knows the "truth" is because you can not know something that is unprovable. The very definition of faith is belief without proof. So you can have faith, you can believe, but you can not know. You might even be right in your faith, but you can't prove it so you can't know you are right.
Super VXer
My eternal place
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Chi Dog...Dog is my Co-pilot
Onward thru the fog
Leave it BETTER than you found it!
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