Super VXer
Nice excuse...I suppose someone held a gun to your head, propped your eyelids open with toothpicks & MADE you read this thread.Originally Posted by Dino
I'm sure glad I held back on my server donation...
(note to self...cut off nose to spite face...that'll teach em'! )
Last edited by Ldub : 09/04/2007 at 03:58 AM
Super VXer
Curiosity. It always amazes me how politics and religion can send people on a rant.
Just thinking about the bandwidth issue is all. You're right, as always Ldub.
I do have a choice.
So long folks.
Sold the VX 11-21-07. It was fun while I had it!
Thanks for all the help.
Super VXer
O my goodness
Super VXer
It always amazes me what you miss when you are away from the forum for a few days!! LOL.
This is all good stuff. I love a good political/religious conversation. People are much more inclined to let 'er rip on a web forum, so you always get some good, well thought out replies, mixed in with some downright irrational flaming!! And it always points out the differences we all share, on a forum we all joined because of our similarities.
I guess what puzzles me to this day, is that most people fail to realize that 99% of everything man-made is utter bull$h1t. People get opinionated and brainwashed but in the end it all means NOTHING. The fact that people take sides and fight for their "beliefs" is awesome, but what I don't get is why people always get so convinced that THEY are RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG.
NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE knows if there is a god. NO ONE knows why we are here, or what the meaning of life is. NO ONE knows if muslims are right, or jews are right, or if christians are right, or if its OK to be gay, or if eating animals is wrong or if there are aliens in our midst or why the hell some VXes burn oil. NO ONE KNOWS AND NO ONE EVER WILL.
So I say, live in the moment, do your best to cause the least impact on the future of life on earth, and believe in NOW. Realize that all strife, turmoil and destruction on this planet is a result of politics, religion, and money, no matter what side you are on. NO ONE is right. NO ONE is wrong. We are just humans here for a short ride in time. There is no solution, it most certainly isn't money and it most certainly isn't Jesus and I don't even know if science will help. People have been around in one form or another for a long time, and not a thing has changed except for the fact that there are a lot more of us and our heads are bumping into one another's more than ever. Everything is happening EXACTLY the way it is supposed to happen. Nothing can be changed.
Bart
Last edited by nfpgasmask : 09/04/2007 at 02:37 PM Reason: mod
Super VXer
It always amazes me what you miss when you are away from the forum for a few days!! LOL.
This is all good stuff. I love a good political/religious conversation. People are much more inclined to let 'er rip on a web forum, so you always get some good, well thought out replies, mixed in with some downright irrational flaming!! And it always points out the differences we all share, on a forum we all joined because of our similarities.
I guess what puzzles me to this day, is that most people fail to realize that 99% of everything man-made is utter bull$h1t. People get opinionated and brainwashed but in the end it all means NOTHING. The fact that people take sides and fight for their "beliefs" is awesome, but what I don't get is why people always get so convinced that THEY are RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG.
NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE knows if there is a god. NO ONE knows why we are here, or what the meaning of life is. NO ONE knows if muslims are right, or jews are right, or if christians are right, or if its OK to be gay, or if eating animals is wrong or if there are aliens in our midst or why the hell some VXes burn oil. NO ONE KNOWS AND NO ONE EVER WILL.
So I say, live in the moment, do your best to cause the least impact on the future of life on earth, and believe in NOW. Realize that all strife, turmoil and destruction on this planet is a result of politics, religion, and money, no matter what side you are on. NO ONE is right. NO ONE is wrong. We are just humans here for a short ride in time. There is no solution, it most certainly isn't money and it most certainly isn't Jesus and I don't even know if science will help. People have been around in one form or another for a long time, and not a thing has changed except for the fact that there are a lot more of us and our heads are bumping into one another's more than ever. Everything is happening EXACTLY that way it is supposed to happen. Nothing can be changed.
well "spoken"! (i do wish SOMEONE would figure out why my VX burns oil though) for real tho i completely agree with what u said.. cheers to that!
"Engineers believe if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet"
Super VXer
Yeah, the burning oil issue is the question of all questions that needs to be answered!!!
well "spoken"! (i do wish SOMEONE would figure out why my VX burns oil though) for real tho i completely agree with what u said.. cheers to that!
Super VXer
A few things:
-W and Lincoln were (are) both Republicans.
-Living off of credit cards does not mean you are rich. Same applies to macroeconomics. Most of the new wealth in the W economy has not gone to you and me, but to the uber-wealthy.
-Jesus was a liberal. Take a cue from Mr. Rogers (a devout Christian and an ordained Minister): God loves everybody just the way you are, even gay people.
-W does not have your best interest at heart. I make more than 95% of Americans and he isn't looking out for me, either.
-More cocaine does not help a cocaine addict kick the habit. Nor does more oil help us kick the oil habit.
-Thou shalt not kill. Killing a man, even a brown one, is not okay to get his land or his oil. His children will be pissed off about it when they grow up.
-You cannot convince me that W is competent by complaining about the Democratic party. Every time someone complains about W, somebody else goes off on a rant ordering the other person to prove that the Democratic party is wonderful.
Nate
Super VXer
Nate: If you make more than 95% of Americans, then you are in fact in the tax bracket. Trust me. Otherwise dont ramble hypocrisy.
Wasabi crunch some numbers on here for facts.
If you dont have numbers and only have finger pointing and name calling, then I suggest you hit the books.
Super VXer
I was wordering how long it was gonna take, for someone to get their fragile sensibilities injured, and go stomping off, slamming the door behind them.I'm with the "Mask", this has been a fun thread. I love it when some one huffs 'n puffs 'n turns all red. My uncle says Buddists are pretty cool...but then, he would play quaits all day, wearing only sandals and the Miller can that was permanently affixed to his left hand.He eventually married a big, fat girl, and had three kids and a train set in his basement
Last edited by Chopper : 09/04/2007 at 10:07 AM
Super VXer
In order to say: "No one is right. No one is wrong." logically you yourself would have to have perfect knowledge of what is right and wrong to say this with finality, and I don't think you would say that at all. It is just like saying all religions have a little bit of the truth but none knows exactly who God is, but in order to make that statement you would have to have a perfect knowledge of God to say that. Basically in other words if you say something like: "NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE knows if there is a god. NO ONE knows why we are here, or what the meaning of life is. NO ONE knows if muslims are right, or jews are right, or if christians are right, or if its OK to be gay, or if eating animals is wrong or if there are aliens in our midst or why the hell some VXes burn oil." Then you yourself would have to know the real answers to these questions perfectly in order to say that no one else's answers are correct. I don't know if you are aware of this Bart but your views are exactly in line with what has been happening in this country for the last 80 years or so. This belief system that you seem to maybe adhere to has actually been so popular that it now has its own name. Secular humanism. Basically as you stated "live in the moment, do your best to cause the least impact on the future of life on earth, and believe in NOW." If I could summarize the secular humanism view not necessarily your words or your own view (only you can do that), but this prevailing thought in America today it would simply be to say: "As a human I should get all I can (while I can), can all I get, and sit on the can, that is the highest calling for man, because after all there is no solution, no one is right and no one is wrong there is no absolute truth." I respect your views and the secular humanism views because we as a country have been so psychologically focused for the last 80 years or so, trying to find your own personal peace inside of you picking and choosing to believe or not believe anything and no one can tell me I am wrong, that this secular humanism is obviously the end of this road. I had a presentation to a class of high school students recently on this subject where I was allowed to give my point of view on this and I would like to share it with you. Remember I am not trying to tell you that you are wrong and I welcome your comments, but I would like to give my point of view. I do not expect you to agree with many of the things I discuss, but I only want to present my own beliefs on this matter. Because I think we all deal with these types of questions. In fact I think we all ask and answer 4 basic questions as humans and I will only cut and paste a section of my presentation that addresses these 4 questions. You should probably only read if you really want to see my point of view, if not no biggie it is a lot of reading I understand completely.
"I believe there are 4 basic questions that we all ask and we all answer depending on our view of the world around us. I believe these questions are so basic and common to mankind that they reach across ages and languages. These questions are common to all peoples. I believe they are part of the eternity that God placed upon our hearts (Ecc) so that we would not be content and fulfilled with anything short of a relationship with an eternal God. We must be very careful how we answer these questions because it will determine how effective we are in leading and where we are leading. Each of the two world views I mentioned earlier answers these questions differently.
Four Questions Everybody Asks
Question #1: Who Am I? What is my nature, my essence?
Question #2: Why Am I Here? What is my goal, my purpose?
Question #3: What Is Wrong with the World? Because obviously something is wrong.
Question #4: How Can What’s Wrong Be Made Right? Because living in a world where they cannot be made right is unthinkable and unlivable.
This is in the soul of every person to wrestle with these questions.
1st lets answer these questions from the perspective of our culture. What is the secular humanistic answer to these questions? Then we will look at Colossians to show us the Christian answer to these questions.
Question #1: Who Am I?
You are nothing, an accident, a mistake, a glorified ape, the result of random evolutionary processes, no rhyme, no reason, and no purpose that is all you are.
Question #2: Why Am I Here?
You are here to consume and enjoy, get all you can, can all you get, and sit on the can. How much money would be enough? A little bit more always a little bit more.
Put these two together and this is a lethal combination. Well, if we are really just a random mistake and we are here to consume and enjoy then I need to maximize my consuming and enjoying and no one better get in my way because after all they are nothing anyways. This is the same line of thought that sees an unborn baby as an inconvenient lump of flesh or worse this child will be severely deformed and will hinder your ability to consume and enjoy. Or even worse you are old and feeble, the end is near, you not only have a right to die, but a duty to die, we can give you a pill and your children will not have to take care of you anymore and they can consume and enjoy better. In this secular humanism world view, Who am I? I am nothing. Why am I here? To make the most of it, to consume and enjoy while I can.
Question #3: What Is Wrong with the World?
People are either insufficiently educated or insufficiently governed. People either don’t know enough or they are not being watched enough.
Question #4: How Can What’s Wrong Be Made Right?
More education. More government. Teach people more stuff. The only problem with this is? If you take a sinful murderous human being and educate them, they only become more sophisticated in their ability to destroy. Well then we need to govern them more. Really? Who is governing the governors?
These answers leave those who adhere to this philosophy wanting and empty and lacking.
How then do we respond?
Christian Theistic answers to these answers:
Question #1: Who Am I?
The crowning glory of the creation of God.
Colossians 1:15-17 (New American Standard Bible)
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.”
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”, Genesis 1:26 “Let us make man in our image and our likeness.”
Question #2: Why Am I Here?
To bring glory and honor to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)
“all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.”
Question #3: What Is Wrong with the World?
Me and everyone like me, who refuse to acknowledge the supremacy of Jesus Christ and live in the pursuit of self.
Colossians 1:19-21 (New American Standard Bible)
“For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,”
Question #4: How Can What’s Wrong Be Made Right?
Through the penal, substitutionary, atoning death of the Son of God, and through repentance and faith on the part of sinners.
Colossians 1:22-23 (New American Standard Bible)
“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
Our culture (secular humanism) leaves people empty and hopeless, man is left worthless, left to pursue our own satisfaction and never find it.
With Christ (Christian theism) we are seen as precious, we have a purpose, we are powerless but it is ok because we were purchased.
What is the difference in how we are to lead as Christians and how believers in other religions are leading. Well, it helps to remember that basically in every other religion in the world you need to have a religious experience, and after that you need to do everything in your power to do more good than bad. That experience and how the good and bad are done may be a little different across religions, but this is basically every religion outside of Christianity.
There are 3 problems with this:
-We can’t be good, we can try but we can’t do it, we are totally radically depraved, even when we do things that look to be good they are for the wrong motives.
-What about all the things we did before this religious experience?
-Where is the assurance?
What is more important how you start something or how you finish it? In the decathlon what is more important my standing after the first event or the last event? In a race what is most important your position at the beginning of the race or at the end? In high school what is most important your class rank your freshman year or your senior year? In a football game what is most important the score after the 1st quarter or the score at the end of the game? In our Christian Walk what is more important when and how it started or how we continued until the end? In our Christian Walk what is more important when and how we started following in such a way to deserve followers or if we continue to do so until the very end? If we live our Christian lives pointing back to a time that we prayed a prayer or a time when we felt close to God, yet do not currently experience a walk with Him today, where are we leading? What are we following today if all our hope is in an event in the past? A great leader continues to follow Christ all the way to the end.
Hebrews 4:13
“We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Colossians 1:22-23
“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard”
I am sorry this is so long, and thanks to any who actually read this. I respect all of your points of view and all of your amazing senses of humor, I hope that this made you think in some way and I really do care about all of you and I hope and pray that you all find happiness and hope in some belief, because we all have beliefs and trust in something or someone whether we know it or not.
Your VX brother,
Ryan H
USA Decathlon Team
Super VXer
I think you completely missed the point. The reason he knows that no one knows the "truth" is because you can not know something that is unprovable. The very definition of faith is belief without proof. So you can have faith, you can believe, but you can not know. You might even be right in your faith, but you can't prove it so you can't know you are right.
Super VXer
My eternal place
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Chi Dog...Dog is my Co-pilot
Onward thru the fog
Leave it BETTER than you found it!
Super VXer
Sort of a tiresome read, but a view with some merit. The place I stumble on the theory is...animals fear and fight against death, every bit as much as we do...at least when it's upon them. They manage to face oblivion and function without the gene. Neolithic man could ponder death, we presume animals cannot, but you're not allowing much time between aquiring the fear, and evolving the gene to overcome it in their model. Left me with a bit of an Art Bell feel...but I occasionally think of it still. Oh yeah...I was wondering how long it was gonna take for someone to whip their Jesus out. I am enjoying this thread...it's following all the great thread pathways...like Anita said
Super VXer
I am sorry I have not heard of the God gene concept, but it sounds pretty stupid, but it is probably conceived through some people's "different" handling of Divine Knowledge that I do not agree with.
But I can say that your question "where in the hell is God when you need him?" is a great logical question that I feel everyone that has even considered believing in a higher being should consider. Excuse me if I rephrase your quote wrong but for me when I ask that question it looks more like, "Why if there is an all knowing good Being that is in control do terrible things still happen?". To me this is a question I have wrestled with many times in my life, like when my mom was going in to have surgery to remove some cancerous parts of her body, or when I was lying in the ER at the Olympic Trials watching my dreams of competing for this great country be flushed down the drain while doctors talked about the possibilities of having to cut the staph infection out of my foot (aka amputate). These times I had to ponder your same question, "why?", "do I deserve this?", "do they deserve this?"? Any many familiar questions just like yours I have many times said "where are you God", "are you even there?" And my only consolation in these times is (apart from Romans 8:28) the thought that I am asking the question wrong. Instead of asking "Why do these terrible things still happen? Where are you God?" I now ask myself "How in the world could you (God) know what I thought yesterday, what I did last week, what I said years ago, what I will do tomorrow, how could you know all these things about me and not destroy me right now? How could you not come down and stop these mockeries of true life that are my short comings?" That to me is a better question because it puts me below God, it humbles me, it reminds me that I am not perfect, have not been perfect and will not be perfect but I am totally dependent on God for everything, even for peace in hard times. The other question "where are you, how could bad things happen if you exist?" These questions put man's situations above God Himself, as if the creator had to answer to the created. But I just wanted to let you know that I have wrestled with the same questions you have, I know what you mean totally. I know you might have asked this question as a joke, but I think it deserves more than just a glance.
Super VXer
Faith - noun A belief in the value, truth, or trustworthiness of someone or something; belief and trust in God, the Scriptures, or other religious writings; a system of religious beliefs.
Belief - noun Something that is trusted or believed.
Believe - verb To accept as true or real; to hold onto religious beliefs.
(Webster's Dictionary New Revised and Expanded Edition)
I would never ever believe or have faith in something without proof. I did not come to the conclusion that the original Hebrew and Greek words of the Bible were indeed inspired by the Creator Himself lightly. I do not have a blind faith or a faith "just because that is what my parents believed." I intentionally took religion classes at Rice University with atheist teachers because I wanted to know for sure, I wanted my faith to be challenged, I wanted to have huge questions, because if there really is a God out there that has been making Himself known to His creation in many ways He would be big enough to answer these questions, I wanted to have "A belief in the value, truth, or trustworthiness of someone or something". I wanted to have a real faith, real beliefs as they are defined. Not blind faith as you describe that is simply stupid to run around as a zombie or sponge soaking up the latest new thing. So no I do not have the faith you describe at all.
Just because you or someone else views something as "improvable" does not mean that it is indeed the case. We all have varying degrees of approval for many things we hear about or see or experience as real, do we not?
So I see why you assume I missed the point and as I am reading back over what I said I myself see my folly there, because it is a complex issue and I did not do a good job of explaining myself I am sorry, but I do see your point.
My point is just because YOU have labeled something as "improvable for yourself" does not mean that it is indeed improvable unless you yourself can see the entire issue and proclaim it as unknowable by all mankind. But conversely it also means that by me saying that it is provable and has been proven to me does not mean or infer that it is provable to you or anyone else, but solely means that it is proven to me and I have faith and belief not blindly, but I do believe and trust as if it were true because it has been proven to me. Just because someone else labels my faith unknowable does not discount my faith to whatever they think, unless they have perfect knowledge of the subject and indeed then they themselves could declare it as unknowable or not.
My faith has been proven to me, and this was a very long hard fought battle believe me. I do not believe blindly, I choose to believe the Bible because it is a reliable collection of historical documents written down by eye witnesses during the lifetime of other eye witnesses, and they report supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies claiming that their writings are divine rather than human in origin. I do see how it seemed like I didn't know what you two meant I am sorry for the confusion guys. I do respect your points of view, but they just seem a little specific and exclusive to declare to every human that has ever lived that they cannot know something for sure, but they have to accept your view that you can never know for sure. I mean you are basically telling me I am wrong and your view is the only obvious one. I am not trying to say the same thing back to you, I do understand what you are trying to say, but in order to say that you would have to prove that it is not knowable or my personal preference is "I don't know what is provable/true/trustworthy in your life, but God has proven over and over again that He is the only faithful One in my life and I cannot convince you of this, but I know for sure for me." Once again guys I respect you and your views please respect mine, I am not saying that you have not, just reminding you that I write all these things innocently just trying to give my point of view not trying to persuade you or tell you that you are wring, but to just give my perspective. Your VX brother, Ryan
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