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I just posted on another thread about what I think this site needs to bring it back to it's quite recent glory. What do you thin it needs and how do you think that can be achieved? I believe this site is too valuable to let die. I will re-post my comments from the other thread if that's OK rather than reiterate them here. :yesb:
That's a good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moncha.
The life support is the members. What do we need to bring it back to life?
I really don't know why the old forum look/form/function was "Better" or perhaps it was just a critical mass of users that made it more compelling to visit and partake in etc. The forum is such a valuable resource to VX owners and created a tight sense of community. The FB group has taken the flow of VX info but as a forum it just really lacks in content. If we could increase the usage here perhaps we could meet that critical mass again. This will take a concerted effort among a group of core users. I fear if the effort is not taken or fails to increase traffic substantially the forum will fail with it.
Agree? Disagree? Willing to make the effort? Do you think it's worth it?
Scott
Scott (bartman), it seems like a tipping point was reached at some point and the site has been slow to recover. When the site went down for maintenance and came back in a different format I know that there was a lot of resistance (to change) and a lot of people complained, but to be fair the site only came back up as a shell of it's former self. A lot of the how-to's and other historic information was not accessible. When the site went dormant, due to Moncha's health, I believe that is when everyone fled to Facebook. Facebook is more accessible and some members are on Facebook a few times a day (an hour) so they can just check in on the VX page, make a comment, and move on. As many have said before, Facebook doesn't have the ability to store the massive amounts of information that VX.info has and there is really no way to search back through past Facebook threads to mine information from them like you can on info.
I really don't Facebook so I'm sure that I have missed a bunch of fun conversations, questions and information. I still check in on VX.info a couple of times a day and will do all that I can to make sure that the site stays alive. I agree that it will take a concerted effort from a few of us to direct traffic back to VX.info, but it seems like we have lost quite a few "old timers" that were to core group before everyone went to Facebook. Gill has sold his VX, Greg has sold his VX, Lisa doesn't really post on the Facebook page, I haven't seen anything from Jay Dunford in a while and many of the other old timers have moved on or seem to be "fading away". Maybe if they knew that VX.info was back up and running they would come back and help make this the tight community that it used to be.
Agreed. I'm not sure it can recover here either. The old site had that je ne sais quoi that drew me in and I would check it all the time. I really have mostly abandoned FB because it became a political soapbox (maybe it always was) where everyone has taken and is entrenched in their side. I just don't give a crap about arguing if there is no point besides yelling your statements with closed ears.
If we're all being honest, the same thing happened here. If you didn't "side" with some of the usual (those who practically lived on the site EVERY day) posters regarding some of their insider BS designed to reinforce their cliques, you were ganged up on and tried to run off...even though in the next post they would claim they were "all about the VX community". :rolly:Quote:
Originally Posted by bartmanS4
Then, heaven forbid a person point out THAT hypocrisy lest the snowball effect just escalate even more.
Not surprised to hear that old attitude from this site was carried over to the FB page though since that kind of entrenched mentality doesn't just go away on it's own. I have to admit it's funny to me personally to hear that kind of attitude is still present now on the FB page, because to hear how any of those aforementioned usual posters used to tell it, the cause of the attitude that used to be present here was posters like me....and I don't and never have posted to the FB page where all those members went.
As they say though, the truth usually has a way of outing itself.
I discovered the FB page and this site, apparently, after the glory days. However, I am not new to online forums or FB. Such behavior is quite common. The Tacoma World forum (as an example) is full of such people and conversations like those discussed are a near daily occurrence. The point is, it happens, a lot.
One thing I have noticed about the FB page, as others have stated, there really is no way to store historical information that can only be built over time. This is something that a forum excels at. People just need to be reminded of that. So, having said that, how do you do that?
You start right here on the forum.
Locate as many of the old HOW-TO’s as you can. Yes I know most were lost a long time ago. But there is information still available spread across what is left of the forum. Consolidate or even re-write as much as we can. Start collecting information and posting it here. A good place to “store” information (at last for now) is start a build a thread for your VX and catalog as much as you can. While it would be nice to get the HOW-TO section reopened (even if it was blank and we had to start over) I really don’t see that happening anytime soon. The recent outage only demonstrates the moderators lackluster motivation for maintaining the site. So, for now anyway, we will have to do without it. I actually have a lot to add to my build thread due to the site being down for so long.
Go to the FB page. When someone requests information, point them back here to forum as often as possible for answers. I have even been going to various Isuzu forums, some are more dead than this one, and reviving old thread trying to point people back here.
But that is also were the danger lies.
When people who have no actual stake in a site (or even a FB page) do their best to help make it grow, they become emotionally invested. Right or wrong, it happens. It falsely inflates ego’s, which makes them easier to bruise. This is how keyboard ninja’s are made. It happens on every forum (and every social media platform) ever created. I recently did a class as part of a social media marketing class and we spent eight weeks studying this phenomenon. It is actually quite fascinating. In the end, only consistently fair and firm moderation of a site with strict adherence to the publicly stated rules of conduct can prevent what many see as an inevitable self-implosion. Once the moderators start making exceptions or taking sides that are not in line with the rules, it is the beginning of zombification. Sites generally take years of zero activity before they completely go away and usually live a very long time with ever smaller traffic numbers.
Can zombie sites be resurrected? Of course. With time and a lot of effort. You just have to be mindful to not let history repeat itself. In the end, it is the moderator(s) that will make or break or site.
What has it been...at least 2 (if not 3) years since this site was "updated"? As pointed out, FAQ's pages, How-to's, DIY stuff weren't readily found after that. (I'm not sure how good it was BEFORE due to a "stingy" method of archival that didn't leave enough...in forums that weren't accessed THAT much anyway. The absence of DIY posts/articles/info is the biggest missing link.
In the past, KAT and LDub were also great "human" directors of traffic and sign-posts. They could easily direct users to information and ways to simplify what people were looking for. As for "factions", I'm not sure it helped/hurt that much. Users of any forum should know this is somewhat inevitable...and not necessarily a deal-breaker.
Finally, the broken links were also a big detriment. I'm not sure if they ever got fixed but you had to add/remove the word "forum" or something like that? Without knowing that for a long time, I got better at using any internet search engine to "look into" and find posts/information. So...the loss of key players, consolidation of procedures, and botched conversion ended up being the death of this forum. To make it interesting again, I think you need all three elements back: Regulars, catalogs of procedures, and flawless operation. It wouldn't hurt to be less stingy with archival either. It wouldn't hurt if 3, 4, or 5+ years of info were readily viewable under select forums.
Oh Trekker....
Scott ( Bartman ) was talking of facebook as whole..not the VX facebook page.
There is NO politics on the FB VX page.. rarely an argument or bad vibes either.
But hey..if you had taken a look at it..instead of misconstruing Scotts post to suit your position..
..you'd know that. :)
Now have at it... as is your want.
Jo
A few thoughts...
Moncha..this sites originator, boss man and "keeper" has not been well at all..so his stewardship of this site has not been up to his usual excellence.
He's doing his best given his situation.
I agree with Scott (Bartman).. the set up previous to the upgrades of this site, had a certain user friendly vibe .
Now maybe this was simply due to being familiar with it... but I think maybe more than that..it had a certain ease of use.
And..while I agree wholeheartedly with the wealth of info etc available here... the facebook page often offers an advantage in terms
of immediacy of reply...
Which when you are part way through a Fix project , STUCK somewhere and looking for help , starting to order stuff, or simply pondering issues .. is an attractive feature.
Jo
Thelgord, I agree with a lot of the points you make, but man, the section I highlighted is so far off the mark, you need to apologise. Scott (Moncha) is the sites owner and only Admin, and for years has been battling serious (life and death) health problems. Despite his health problems and the pathetic American health benefits system, he has continued to work hard, within his limits, to keep this site going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelgord
The only possible criticism, is that maybe he should have asked other members to help run the forum, but that is his decision to make.
I just hope Scott ignores your comments, and continues to do the best he can to allow us access to this forum.
Scotty, all the best wishes for your continued health improvement, and I hope you can give some consideration to allowing others to help out.
Regards
Peter
PK
The filestore thing has been an issue since I created an account here. I am sure the moderators ar every nice people, with the best of intentions and do what they can when they can. But, as the recent outage, the listing of the site as a possible phishing site by not only Goggle, but also by the DOD and other sites (still black listed by DOD btw) clearly demonstrates they are either unable or unwilling to be as affective as they could be.
You can take my comments anyway you like, or don’t. You can read as much or as little into them as you desire. However, by saying things like “I really hope Scott ignores your comment” only highlights the fact that the whole “clique” thing that Y33TREKker mentioned is still here. You are attempting to make more out of a comment than there is. If all you have to add to the conversation is personal attacks, and invitations for others to do the same, then please refrain from commenting. The whole “clique” things really has to stop, and you’re not helping.
Oh the exuberance of the youthful and un-informed.
Go for your life man, but the Trekkie side of the team can be very lonely.
PK
Hahaha!
Not trying to be an azz, but this site was restored more quickly than I anticipated...for the health reasons cited. If that level of response is possible, then what prevented better response in the past? Is it a combination of health, depression, and/or the possibility this site can't provide the monetary pay-back necessary? Politics and our currently mentality show people aren't willing to look out for the ailing, slow, or sick. Capitalism is what people seem to want. "Make it" or "break it" has to be applied here. Frank replies are actually more helpful to discovering action/fate than hope. It made be sad, but it's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFotoz
I can see where people have an advantage hitting up users of Facebook for fast replies. There is GREAT value in asking "the community" for an answer...and being connected via phonelink to other users. A new TV show "Wisdom of the Crowd" explores this idea. It may actually be a peak into the future. It's hard to say if a tool/messenger could be added to a user forum like this BUT it adds emphasis to what I already emphasized: Information needs to be here and readily available. The only alternative to asking users of a community for a quick answer (Facebook) is having an online encyclopedia where the answer can be readily retrieved without much need for asking other users questions.
The users LDub and Kat were the librarians who made fast answers possible AND may have done so while more and more information became "archived". Disk space is so cheap these days I question how little is displayed/available here. It's like have a front room to a library while needing a key to the archives or the right "code". Finally, to be honest, there might be something to this "clique" thing. I try to contribute where possible and rarely feel like my posts are read/noticed. Maybe it's just a testament to how few people are here these days?
89Vette, you bring up a lot of valid points. When I first found this forum, it was a ghost town, so I starting posting anyway. I started the build log mainly for myself and I have received more feedback that I ever thought I would. I honestly didn’t (and still don’t) know if this will be around in the future. It’s a niche market to be sure. One that seems to be getting smaller everyday. There have been more VX’s offered for sale in the last few months than I have ever seen. Even the unicorn is for sale. In a way that makes a site like this one even more important, but it can also make it irrelevant if it cannot be funded or maintained with any level of consistency.
As for messaging on a forum, I am no expert on forum software, but I do know that another site I visit has both messaging and chat as well as a member map. Just google Overland Bound dot com and you will see what I am talking about. The downside is that it seems to require a LOT of maintaining to keep it working well, and the page load times leave a lot to be desired. Again, I am no web designer, but I do know it is possible.
Thank you for providing yet another example of the condescending attitude of old on this site Jo, based of course on your opinion of comments made intended to suit YOUR position. After all, you used to say that the clique mentality I commented about didn't exist here at THAT time either. (Yes, the irony is still as thick as ever).Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFotoz
Those in the real know can always count on you in that regard.
Speaking of uninformed...Quote:
Originally Posted by PK
But hey, go for YOUR life PK (which is apparently partly based on the usage of juvenile nicknames intended to imitate maturity?). Wow, you really got me with that one. :winko:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelgord
Quote:
Originally Posted by PK
Who says this site isn't informative...Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelgord
Unfortunately, you are more on target with these comments than many will ever admit.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89Vette
While I can't grant that the site admin here has always been as objective as he could have been regarding the clique mentality that's already been displayed in THIS thread again (gotta love when the people who claim it doesn't happen are the ones who themselves provide proof that it does), he deserves a lot of credit for having been able to achieve what this site once was.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89Vette
Maybe the "missing" information in question is still archived somewhere and he'll be able to restore it here to some sort of searchable form in the future...and maybe not. Either way, continuing to contribute does not go unnoticed, even though yes, there simply aren't as many members here as there used to be. That could simply be a direct correlation to the number of VX's still on the road these days though, and the small percentage of THOSE owners who are the type to inhabit message boards related to their vehicles. Not every VX owners life revolves around their VX after all...as crazy as that might sound. :winko:
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for providing yet another example of the condescending attitude of old on this site Jo, based of course on your opinion of comments made intended to suit YOUR position. (Yes, the irony is still as thick as ever).
Those in the real know can always count on you in that regard.[/QUOTE]
There it is ... !
You now claim condescension !!...when it was YOU who initially went on a rant about those who "lived here" etc!!
....the very epitome of a condescending tone !
It wasnt my "opinion" of Scotts ( bartmans) remarks.
I've talked to him about this very thing ......I KNOW what he meant.
Twas you that misconstrued his comment ( re: facebook IN GENERAL ) ..
...and in your haste to twist his words to suit your STILL lingering angst ...
..once again illustrated why you piss so many people off :)
But of course... everyone else is at fault..never YOU ... its a 'clique' mentality..never YOU !
Have at it... I'm out.
Well ... that escalated quickly ...
IT'S WORKING!! Now I'm checking the site every few hours....
This site is much more useful and provides a better avenue for discussion than the linear facebook page. What is missing though are the invaluable "how to's" and the built up knowledge base that used to be available previously. If they can be made available again, and it remains available without issues, this forum will once again attract members. With the return of members, it can again be the place for all things VX.
Speaking of angst...Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFotoz
As convenient as ever that you always base your comments on conversations that went on behind closed doors, and, with people who were usually seen to be in the same cliques being discussed.
As a result, you'll have to forgive me if I still don't grant you the publc illusion of objectivity you've always tried to claim for yourself, where it's never YOU either, ;)
I gotta say forums are about finding/getting information. HOW MUCH you engage/combat with someone you clash with is as much your fault as any. From this thread, it would appear you are a bit too sensitive. BTW...This is NOT an invitation to debate the subject BECAUSE I WON'T. You can take it or leave it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Y33TREKkerIf we're all being honest, the same thing happened here. If you didn't "side" with some of the usual (those who practically lived on the site EVERY day) posters regarding some of their insider BS designed to reinforce their cliques, you were ganged up on and tried to run off...even though in the next post they would claim they were "all about the VX community". :rolly:Quote:
Originally Posted by bartmanS4
Then, heaven forbid a person point out THAT hypocrisy lest the snowball effect just escalate even more.
Not surprised to hear that old attitude from this site was carried over to the FB page though since that kind of entrenched mentality doesn't just go away on it's own. I have to admit it's funny to me personally to hear that kind of attitude is still present now on the FB page, because to hear how any of those aforementioned usual posters used to tell it, the cause of the attitude that used to be present here was posters like me....and I don't and never have posted to the FB page where all those members went.
As they say though, the truth usually has a way of outing itself.
Though I suggested there were people/tools/faqs that could simplify searches, NOT having them doesn't mean information can't be found. We don't NEED a kindly greeter constantly monitoring and helping. Just make sure everything (especially DIY/Knowledgebase) information is readily available and I think you'd see hits go back up. Even people who rant/complain are hits.
There was a member that rubbed me the wrong way and required the intervention of Moncha once/twice. That didn't prevent me from using the site or gleaning information. The ONLY reason I bring it up again is to say I DON'T consider this thread an invitation to complain about something in the past. Regarding conflicts present or past, I would suggest letting it lie. I looked at prior conflict like fighting with a brother. I get over it. Geez.
As you apparently don't recall from the past discussions that prompted my comments in the first place, finding, getting, and I would say most importantly PROVIDING information on this site was what never seemed to be enough for the cliques I've been referring to. Even though providing information comprises the bulk of the comments I've ever made here.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89Vette
And you seem to be assuming that combating forum clique BS is something I enjoy. (I notice that you directed your comments at only me anyway while seemingly giving the other combatant a free pass as HIM not being too sensitive. (He didn't HAVE to comment AT ALL after all).
That said, I'd be curious to see how "sensitive" YOU turned out to be if someone was suggesting/implying some of the things that were being suggested/implied about people who weren't simply going along with the clique BS that got this all started way back when.
But, since you've displayed your own bias by wanting to put in your 2-cents regarding a person dealing with this kind of BS...but not wanting to allow for any feedback on your point of view.....I'll simply leave your opinion.
Don't take it personally though...
I won't. And...I only responded to the first person who seemed to broach this topic in THIS thread. I "gloss over" and avoid reading posts that turn "personal". I do not keep track of quibbles, attacks, or whatever....especially if they've (apparently) had some history? Without knowing why YOU brought an "old grudge" into a new thread.....it seemed logical to comment on the combativeness issue using your post AS AN EXAMPLE. Don't take it personally....Quote:
Originally Posted by Y33TREKker
My suggestion is to ignore people/posters uninterested in helping your search/quest. If they are not helping, why engage them? And why perpetuate it?
So much for not debating the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89VetteI won't. And...I only responded to the first person who seemed to broach this topic in THIS thread. I "gloss over" and avoid reading posts that turn "personal". I do not keep track of quibbles, attacks, or whatever....especially if they've (apparently) had some history? Without knowing why YOU brought an "old grudge" into a new thread.....it seemed logical to comment on the combativeness issue using your post AS AN EXAMPLE. Don't take it personally....Quote:
Originally Posted by Y33TREKker
My suggestion is to ignore people/posters uninterested in helping your search/quest. If they are not helping, why engage them? And why perpetuate it?
As for claiming to not know why I brought an "old grudge" (your words, not mine) into this thread, that simply comes across as a dodge and gross mischaracterization because the context of the thread and it's previous comments made it pretty self-explanatory regarding what I was commenting about. That you further tried to characterize my comment ALONE as "combative" simply speaks for itself...again.
But this is all academic as you should know and acknowledge because you also participated in the past "discussions" I've been referring to, adding your 2-cents at those times too, so it seems convenient at best that you'd be making suggestions to me about not engaging/perpetuating such things.
Seriously, I don't remember any arguments (with you recently) or participating in any OTHER "debates non-related to VX ownership" FOR YEARS. Between others, arguments cause me to "gloss over reading entire posts". I agree with your plea for civility/decorum and avoid confrontation. (I just disagreed with WHERE to post the suggestion). Furthermore, I agree needless confrontation is unproductive, lacks value, and tends to drive readers away. That said, especially in car forums, "opinions" are normal. How well things are organized and accessible makes the bigger difference. This forum is unique in the fewer number of owners due to the limited production. Besides information, the size of the user community obviously plays the biggest role...which is the point of this thread.
FWIW, I also remember posting something in the "Site Questions & Problems" forum over a year ago. It NEVER received a reply. I notice the question is gone (archive rules)? The perception is a lack of transparency and/or help to the user community. Like other topics, problems/questions don't seem helpful to archive. People can easily find an answer to a problem in a forum specifically designed for that purpose.
When you combined 1yr archival with the low number of posts per year, you maximize the "skeletal" perception of the forum.
auto-subscriptions to threads probably couldn't hurt. Getting rid of the "myfilestore" glitch/spam/hack would be great.
FB requires compromising personal information (eg. cell-phone number) just to even access the site & have the ability to communicate on it. Thanks, but no thanks. At least on a forum, I have a little more faith that my personal information isn't going to be used for nefarious purposes by the most pimply, undeserving billionaire on the planet. Oh, and I didn't have to give my cell # to join here.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFotoz
And since the only people on this forum are all apparently subbed to this thread...does anyone know what types of isuzu clockspring will work with a JDM VX steering wheel? I'd really like to know, so I don't end up having to splice connectors.
The "discussion" I was referring to regarding how the clique here at the time was labeling current and new members "freeloaders", "deadbeats", etc while simultaneously (and ironically) lobbying-for/promoting monetary site-donations occurred awhile back.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89Vette
I had simply questioned how someone new to the site at the time asking for specific information about a VX being met with "Use the search function, that'll be $20" was as productive, welcoming, or conducive to recruiting new monetary and informational contributors to the site as they apparently believed it was. Of course, after having it pointed out like that, the members in question THEN started actually answering the questions WHILE suggesting the search function and asking for site donations, but that's not what was happening beforehand. And I understand how you may not remember participating at that time, but I wouldn't call jumping on the bandwagon to take a few pot shots at me because it was easy to do when so many others were doing it participating anyway, but I've learned to ignore it so no big deal, especially since it's been made obvious once again in this thread that it's somewhat knee-jerk with some people even though they weren't even here at the time.
But the push-back was simply another ironic part of that entire fiasco. There I was "pissing so many people off" by suggesting that name-calling by a mob-like group of forum members was not necessarily the best way of achieving the monetary site donation goal they were promoting...or...the appearance that the site was ACTUALLY as welcoming as some had convinced themselves that it was.....and yet it's obvious that at least one of the members who was practically living on the site and doing those things on a daily basis is STILL of the opinion they were doing nothing to be called out on as questionable.
So, when logic failed and it seemed as if $$$ was all that some understood, I tried approaching the matter from another objective and more democratic direction by suggesting that site donation could be pro-rated directly proportionally to site participation based on post count. After all, why would it be fair for someone who posted maybe once or twice a week to be expected to pay the same amount to participate on the site as someone who posted 10 or 20 times a DAY? When viewed that way, the once or twice a week poster would basically be subsidizing the habits of the 10 or 20 times a day poster. Well I'll give you three guesses as to how that suggestion was met with the main site dwellers....and the first two guesses don't count. :winko:
After that, it became a condescending free-for-all from the clique so what else could a reasonable person be expected to do except just sit back, ignore it, and let that kind of forum mentality take the site where it would....and the rest as they say...is history.
Not knowing what happened to the How-To information that used to be accessible on the site, it's impossible to comment on its fate, but the possibility that it's still archived somewhere would be best case scenario for those who may need such information.
Wish I could help but I've never considered a JDM steering wheel so never had the need to research such information. Have you looked around for any Vehicross websites in Canada, Europe, Russia, etc for additional information? There used to be some fairly active sites in those parts of the world too where JDM items would have been more prevalent, so that would likely be your best bet for info anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by ipd
I think it's likely I didn't participate because I don't remember ANY of the explanation to which you refer. If someone pointed me to a post and said "Thanks. That'll be $20, I'd assume they were joking." OTOH, if it was something easy to find, I'd take the hint and look harder next time. (Ironically, that's what this site has turned into because of the low participation and difficulty finding older threads. UNLESS, that is, they fixed all the link problems! :-) ) In other words, I'm saying I look pretty hard now AND rarely ask questions OR for referals (to posts) because the odds of getting a reasonably quick response are so low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Y33TREKker
If anything, mostly I answer a question/two here or there as someone knowing lots about cars.
It doesn't help ANY forum that Photobucket crapped on ALL their free members...resulting in killed links and missing pictures everywhere you turn (on the net). Talk about burning my chaps!
Sorry, I am still new to the VX myself. Today I learned how to remove the electrical connectors for the fuel injectors. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ipd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Y33TREKker
Easy to suggest based on theory, but as a lot of us know at this point, the VX has a lot of unique issues that a person would NEVER find unless they were ALREADY familiar with VX terminology. So a "the search function is your friend" coupled with a request for a site donation conjured at best a non-answer, chicken-or-the-egg scenario. Why you don't remember participating will simply remain a mystery then.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89Vette
I've always been the same regarding offering assistance here, basing my answers on a combination of knowing about cars and the experience I've personally acquired working on my own VX. One would think that would have been enough on a vehicle related message board, but I found that never seemed to be enough here for SOME.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89Vette
I dunno....It seems like a demonstration of the power of links would be appropriate here! (Just in case you have me confused with someone else!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Y33TREKker
If only. As a result then, we'll simply have to focus on the basic jist of the comments you've provided in THIS thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89VetteI dunno....It seems like a demonstration of the power of links would be appropriate here! (Just in case you have me confused with someone else!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Y33TREKker
Oh great. Instead of a thread to help boost site visits & pump energy back into the forum, it's devolved into an old-habits-die-hard argument. :(