Advice on Lower Control Arm damage & repair

Had my guy do a quicky assessment today on the lower control arm damage from Moab.
Said piece that connects to LCA is also tweaked/bent (circled).
Told me to get:

The frame piece from A-arm forward. He'll cut the brackets on the frame. And a new ($300 new :eek: or replacement) LCA.

1) What is part # in schematic for piece above LCA? Is it #1, STEERING KNUCKLE? ($568 NEW :eek:) (Schematic at bottom of post)

2) Searching salvage yards shows 96-97 Rodeos/Passport are same/will fit. ANYBODY KNOW? Obviously there's plenty of them locally I can get.

3) Think a salvage yard will PULL the LCA and the other part for me?

4) If so, how much would be fairly reasonable for them to pull it?

5) Took more pics showing different angles - input/comments on what you see?

6) Thoughts/opinions on this repair/replace plan?

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...ARM_DAMAGE.jpg

DIFFERENT ANGLES ON DAMAGE
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...E/DSCF2129.jpg



http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...E/DSCF2132.jpg


http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...E/DSCF2195.jpg



LOOKING STRAIGHT UP
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...E/DSCF2183.jpg



UNDAMAGED SIDE FOR COMPARISON
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...E/DSCF2146.jpg



http://www.trademotion.com/media/ima.../4/4628195.gif

If you are referring to the green circle as #1 in your schematic, thats doesn't look like the part. That would be the one that is right behind the rotor cover. Would it be whatever is connected to #25 bushing that you are looking for? TBH, I can't even find that piece in the parts catalog either.

PG 3C-12 and 3C?19 in the Workshop Manual
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...Untitled-1.jpg
No part number anywhere. Is it welded to the frame? Or is it bolted? Hard to tell from your pictures.

It's the part outlined here, I think he said it's the frame. I'm not quite sure if it's the entire part in green, or if he wants just red part, but I think it's welded to the green.
This part is bolted to the lower control arm with purple bolt/nut.

I remember him saying something like he needs the frame in front of the steering box (or something like that). Does that make any sense? (Obviously I need to talk to him again and get it clarified).

Sounds like he's saying he needs to chop a piece of the frame out here out of mine, including the vertical piece (green) that's tweeked, and get the same chunk from a donor and he'll weld it into place, and then bolt it to a new A-arm.
I'm way outta my league here, so I have no idea.

Sounds like it's gonna cost a fortune - - - :(

I need to check with the VXers that have spare part trucks, see if they can "cut" this piece out for me - - - anybody have Rent-a-torch handy? etfren, Jo, vxfocus ??

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...T_OUTLINED.jpg

Ouch... Murphy's Law... All that protection under there and you get hit where it hurts...

So it is that piece I circled in my pic. Hopefully it's a bit easier that having to cut a section out... If it's not to hot out tomorrow, I'm gonna try swapping out my front rotors, I'll take a closer look at that section.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knigh7s

Ouch... Murphy's Law... All that protection under there and you get hit where it hurts...

So it is that piece I circled in my pic. Hopefully it's a bit easier that having to cut a section out... If it's not to hot out tomorrow, I'm gonna try swapping out my front rotors, I'll take a closer look at that section.

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Thanks Adam-Lee! (I forget which name you go by :_thinking).
Appreciate the input/info!

:rollo: yeah, tell me about Murphy's law :_brickwal

What about a good front end/ frame shop? Get a good LCA and they could heat and pull that bracket back to specs. Then do the alignment .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigblock8396375

What about a good front end/ frame shop? Get a good LCA and they could heat and pull that bracket back to specs. Then do the alignment .

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I'm with bigblock. If that section of the frame is actually bent/tweaked, you shouldn't have any problem finding a shop with frame straightening equipment that could un-tweak that one small section. You own repair guys could then replace the bolt on parts, although if your own guys don't have the equipment to do the alignment, you might be better off (save yourself some time and running back and forth) just having the frame shop do everything.

That must have been a good sized pebble is all I can say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

I'm with bigblock. If that section of the frame is actually bent/tweaked, you shouldn't have any problem finding a shop with frame straightening equipment that could un-tweak that one small section. You own repair guys could then replace the bolt on parts, although if your own guys don't have the equipment to do the alignment, you might be better off (save yourself some time and running back and forth) just having the frame shop do everything.

That must have been a good sized pebble is all I can say.

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My shop does alignments, but don't think they do frame work. I'm thinking I should start by making appt, give him some time to assess it, instead of the quicky look yesterday.
I'll also start checking around for a frame place.

I think it happened when I came off a ledge and couldn't/didn't see the large drop, and landed on a "pebble" (:goof:). The dent does look pretty much like a round type shape.

Hiya Sue

Sent you an e-mail.

Jo

Hey Sue,
I'm in exactly the same conundrum as you! Plus more
I bent my lower arm and it wrapped the metal around that mounting point. Not sure yet what the full extent of the damage is but I have an appointment on Tuesday to get it looked at.
Disclaimer: DON'T DO KANE CREEK STOCK.....

I find it hard to believe that it bent that piece. The damage to the LCA should be much worse to bend that thick of steel. Frame straightening can be expensive but usually not as difficult as finding the right part of a frame from salvage then cutting and welding. The alignment shop probably wont know much about the way it should be. I would look for a frame shop and have someone that knows frames really well look at it to make sure exactly where you stand and what options you have.

The front LCA mount is part of the frame so no separate parts available. Have to either straighten it or cut and weld from a donor. LCA shouldnt be too difficult to come by but can be a PITA to remove because of the rear mounting bolt. They dont like to come out sometimes.

Sue, these guys are nearby and could build you some nuclear bomb proof control arms! ;)

Noboy said "SAS"?! Seriously?! HAHA - I would suggest replacing the LCA, getting an alignment & letting it ride! If it is too bad to get the LCA back on... heat & hammer time! Heck of a hit, Sue - STOP IT! :P

Sue, I have to go with Zeus's comments. You drove all the way back home and your lower control arm did not fall off demonstrating the reserve capacity of the arm. The arm is cracked and that has to be addressed, if you can't find a new one beat the old one in shape and weld a section over the distressed section. If you take out part of the frame and weld in a new piece you will have a patched(weaker) frame that will lower the resale and originality plus have a good place for rust to start on the inside of the frame. Just use a stock lower control arm, if you get a beefed up one the next time the frame or something else will break. If the new arm doesn't line up, that is where the frame shop will come in.

Mike

THANKS for all the input gang!
I cleaned up both sides and took more pics at slightly different angles and views.
I really couldn't detect any difference in angle or anything on the LCA vertical frame mount piece.

I'm NOT real keen on chopping up my frame now that reality of this has sunk in!

I think I agree with you guys, so I'm hoping my guy Dale can heat/hammer/BFH/weld a patch, align it, and send me on my way.

I'll replace the LCA if needed.
*** BOTH "CAR-PART" AND "MYPARTSHOP" SAY LCA IN '96-'97 RODEO IS THE SAME.
DAVE DO YOU KNOW??
THERE'S DOZENS IN PHOENIX, CAN FIND A NICE CLEAN RUST-FREE ONE***

Anybody see anything in these pics??

1 -
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2298.jpg


2-
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2349.jpg


3 -
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2345.jpg


4 -
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2323.jpg



5 -
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2311.jpg


6 -PASSENGER SIDE FOR COMPARISON
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2360.jpg



7 -
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2371.jpg



8 -
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2358.jpg



9 -
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2388.jpg




10 - LOOKING STRAIGHT UP FROM GROUND AT DAMAGED A-ARM.
CAN SEE HOW BENT INWARD IT IS - GOOD HIT FOR SURE!
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2510.jpg

Hi Sue,
the LCA has to be replaced, no option if you want to have a safe vehicle to drive. The fact it hasn't failed yet is okay to show reserve capacity, but the cracks and additional stress in that arm will lead to eventual failure.
As far as the frame part goes, it does not look damaged in the photos, so I would ask your mechanic to point out the damage, and compare it to the other side.
I would also jack the VX up and take both front wheels off. Then take photos of that frame part from outside the wheel well looking straight in.
The force caused by the rock looks like it has gone upwards and to the rear. So the frame part could be bent to the rear and we would not see it in the photos you have taken.

I am fairly sure a new LCA and bushes, and wheel alignment will have you happy again.

PK

Hard to see small frame member bends with the eye, really need it on a frame rack with laser alignment to check it. That said, I cant see anything that indicates any bending on the LCA mount.

Now that myisuzuparts is gone its hard to cross reference parts. Isuzu mixed so many trooper and rodeo parts on the VX I never know which are the same. Might have to call Merlin, he should be able to tell you for sure.

This is why I don't wanna take my VX off-road. I live vicariously through all of you. LOL. I really hope you can get everything repaired Kat. :)

Sue, you took one hard hit on that LCA and that can transmit to anything it's attached to. In the VX's case, that happens to be a cast bracket that once tweaked cannot be staightened and expected to survive. Any reputable frame shop or repair facility won't take that risk. The reason your go-to guy won't just weld in a new bracket is because it's very tricky welding cast metal to formed steel. That's why he's opting for cutting out the frame and bracket assembly and welding in a salvaged assembly from a yard. It really makes sense from a safety standpoint and I commend him for calling it like it is...sorry the news isn't better! :_brickwal

I *thought* the VX suspension was the same as a 2nd gen Trooper, not Rodeo...but I could easily be wrong.

All 92-02 Troops should have the same LCA, BTW.

Definitely will talk with my guy about all the options after he assess it, and decide on best/safe course. Since I can't lift it, I've always known damage was likely a matter of time, and this year with me feeling so crummy, I guess my number was up. So I gotta pay to play :_shrug:

Since my guy does laser alignments, I'm hoping he also does frame work.

I'm confident we'll get her all fixed up one way or the other! :thumbup:
Although I may need to sell some stuff to afford all this - - hmmm, I do have this one Beretta Cheetah .380 I've been "thinking" of selling - - may have to now :rollo: BOO! :thumbdn:

OH, FORGOT TO MENTION THE GOOD NEWS!
Replacing the fan clutch and fan blade DEFINITELY solved the overheating in hot weather with full A/C.
I ran both trails all day with full A/C, crawling, 92+ degrees air temp.
Scan gauge hung around 184 - 190 degrees, and never went above 207 (once when I was climbing slowly).

YAH!!!!
.
.
.
.
it was still pretty miserably hot, with all the starting/stopping/slowing but hey, I didn't overheat! :dance::dance:

Ummmm....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VX KAT

Since I can't lift it

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...yup, ya can.

I've been through this with you :cool:

OK..back to the pool party!


Jo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoFotoz

Ummmm....



...yup, ya can.

I've been through this with you :cool:

OK..back to the pool party!


Jo

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oh yeah, I forgot again. (again, and again :mbrasd:)
Yes, I should look into those airbag/air system. Thanks for reminding me. IIRC, it wasn't the kind that's an airbag within the spring, correct?
Since I'm not familiar with this, can anybody shoot me a link so I can start checking them out?

It certainly would be cool to watch Sue lift and slam her bagged VX (would it be the first?). But couldn't she just put in the Daystar spacers, crank the T-bars, and be more or less where she was last year when she had no problems? I think the only difference is her tires are 1" shorter than they were last year, so if she lifts by an inch (Daystar advertises them as 1.5" but rickshaw and I both found them to be closer to 1") her step-in height would only be .5-1" higher. That's $40 compared to who knows how much for a remote air bag system.

But is the problem really the trails themselves? A few folks told me the trails were worse last year than in previous years, even on the "bunny slopes." And it sounds like things were even worse this year. Are we seeing the end of the era of stock VX participation at Moab?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VX KAT

Definitely will talk with my guy about all the options after he assess it, and decide on best/safe course. Since I can't lift it, I've always known damage was likely a matter of time, and this year with me feeling so crummy, I guess my number was up. So I gotta pay to play :_shrug:

Since my guy does laser alignments, I'm hoping he also does frame work.

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It seems that the first step would have to be determining whether that section of the frame is actually tweaked or not. With an oddly shaped piece like the one in question, having it checked out on an actual frame straightening rack would obviously be more accurate than an eyeball assessment...no offense meant to your guy of course, it's just that I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in this thread when the eyeball he uses for these kinds of assessments was last calibrated. :confused:

:bwgy:

Who knows, maybe it'll all turn out to have been a false alarm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vt_maverick

It certainly would be cool to watch Sue lift and slam her bagged VX (would it be the first?). But couldn't she just put in the Daystar spacers, crank the T-bars, and be more or less where she was last year when she had no problems? I think the only difference is her tires are 1" shorter than they were last year, so if she lifts by an inch (Daystar advertises them as 1.5" but rickshaw and I both found them to be closer to 1") her step-in height would only be .5-1" higher. That's $40 compared to who knows how much for a remote air bag system.

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That calculation was right until they DID crank my TBs a little to clear the tires, so I ended up about 1/2" higher than my prior set up. I even had them lower the TBs a little, but I'm still a little bit higher in front than before. Which makes it all the more ironic doesn't it!

Interesting Porcupine Rim is listed in the Wells book as Easy, whereas Hells Revenge and Fins-N-Things are listed as Difficult. I thought it was a little harder than "easy".

On Porcupine you go up and back on same trail, so some of these pics were harder going down. I know I slammed down on a few of these, any one could have caused my damage. Look at all those potential hits to the Driver side LCA!

I just took some bad lines, wasn't careful enough on some areas, and have no one else to blame but myself.

A stocker could still easily do this trail.


Oh, and I stopped by the shop 10 mins before closing on a holiday weekend so it was a real quicky. He'll do a full assessment before I do anything.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da.../DSC079031.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC07686.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC07687.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC07696.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC07912.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/DSC07596.jpg

Sue, to do that damage you surely would have heard and felt it. That would require a VERY hard hit.

The object of Air bagging Sues ride is to give her easy entry/exit at a suitable/comfortable height...

...and the ability to lift once settled in, for good 4X4 ground clearance.

As for the trail ratings in the guide book...OUT OF DATE!

Increased usage, rain errosion, and decreased trail maintenance have IMO, radically altered many of the trails.

Some are easier than they were...most are/seem harder.

jo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoFotoz

The object of Air bagging Sues ride is to give her easy entry/exit at a suitable/comfortable height...

...and the ability to lift once settled in, for good 4X4 ground clearance.

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Hence "lift and slam." ;)

:thumbup:...I hear ya Mav.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vt_maverick

Hence "lift and slam." ;)

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...was really just laying out the gist of what Sue and I have been chatting about..
.......to help anyone with airbag skills chime in.

:_beer:

jo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Triathlete

Sue, to do that damage you surely would have heard and felt it. That would require a VERY hard hit.

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Oh I heard and felt it alright! I had 3 really bad slams coming down Porcupine Rim.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott Larson

Sue, you took one hard hit on that LCA and that can transmit to anything it's attached to. In the VX's case, that happens to be a cast bracket that once tweaked cannot be staightened and expected to survive. Any reputable frame shop or repair facility won't take that risk. The reason your go-to guy won't just weld in a new bracket is because it's very tricky welding cast metal to formed steel. That's why he's opting for cutting out the frame and bracket assembly and welding in a salvaged assembly from a yard. It really makes sense from a safety standpoint and I commend him for calling it like it is...sorry the news isn't better! :_brickwal

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Scott,

That bracket doesn't look like it's cast. It looks like the same material that the LCA is made out of ... Stamped Steel.

Sue,

I'll stick with my original opinion (even tho the 3rd nutz bros disagrees). Replacement LCA is an option but the original part can probably be made to be as true and strong as OEM. It's just a matter of determining the most cost effective approach to the repair.

Definitely do not start cutting your frame for this repair. It isn't necessary.

Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vt_maverick

But couldn't she just put in the Daystar spacers, crank the T-bars, and be more or less where she was last year when she had no problems? I think the only difference is her tires are 1" shorter than they were last year, so if she lifts by an inch (Daystar advertises them as 1.5" but rickshaw and I both found them to be closer to 1")

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FWIW, they are 1.5" in their intended application, which is a Dodge PU front IFS I believe. But for our use they are indeed 1" effective lift.

Quote:

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But is the problem really the trails themselves? A few folks told me the trails were worse last year than in previous years, even on the "bunny slopes." And it sounds like things were even worse this year. Are we seeing the end of the era of stock VX participation at Moab?

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There are still plenty of easier trails out there, so there isn't any need to exclude stockers. Might take a concious effort to include a easier trail run each day, but given the informal nature of the organization of trail runs, those interested in easier trails do need to be proactive about it.

Heck, on Sunday a bunch of use went on Thompson Canyon, an easy trail none of us had been on before. No technical driving, but we had a good time.

Hey Sue, I didn't read through every reply here, but honestly, I agree with Giz. It does not look like you bent the frame mounting piece that holds the LCA bushing.

From what I see, you should replace your LCA with a straight one, get new LCA bushings, and have all that installed.

I just checked car-part.com and it looks like the late model Rodeo LCAs are the same as they come up in the search....looks as cheap as $35.

I think you should leave the frame alone unless there really is significant damage, which does not appear to be the case.

Bart

:hj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ND92

Disclaimer: DON'T DO KANE CREEK STOCK.....

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I did Kane Creek stock with no problem... eleven years ago! Great trail, but I took home some "trail trophies" the last time I did it (with rock sliders, skid plates, lift, and bigger tires). Yes, some trails are getting tougher and the old 1-5 rating system is out of date. However, a stock vehicle can sill do most of the old 3 or 3.5 trails. Just be careful, go slow, and have a good spotter. I did Steel Bender... sorry, Hello Kitty Canyon... before my VX was lifted. I bumped and scraped quite a bit, but nothing major. Thanks for the spotting Steve!

I hope you get your VX fixed up without too much $$$ Sue, and I hope things like this don't deter anyone from coming out to Moab. I love hanging out with you all! Good luck Sue. :luck:

Discussed with my guy again (by phone)-

• Thinks vertical frame piece is pushed rearward from the impact
  
  
• Vertical piece in RED is welded to the frame
  
  
• Wants the piece of donor frame in GREEN with several inches on either side of the vertical piece, so he can remove the vertical piece himself, nice and clean.
  
  
• He does not have frame repair equipment so can't do laser measurement
  
  
• Made appt for tomorrow to put it on rack and take closer look.
  
  
• May take it to a frame shop to confirm if vertical piece is out of spec. BEFORE I commit to anything.
  
  
• I'd PREFER to have him do LCA/bushing replacement, and alignment.
  If he can't align, would that confirm frame piece is out of spec?
  I realize that would cause double labor if frame piece is out of whack and THEN needs to be replaced.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...T_OUTLINED.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCF2298.jpg

Yeah, I mean, it is difficult to see in the photo, but I think you are on the right track with replacing the LCA and bushings first, and then see if you can get it aligned, at a different shop that knows nothing about the damage, just to be 100% sure you are getting honest work.

Bart

I agree with Bart, the KISS should definitely be implimented here, Keep It Simple Stupid ;-)

Far too many times I have tried to fix TOO much and ended up having worse problems down the road with what I was trying to avoid. Keep it as stock as possible.

Just like Bart said I would replace LCA and bushing and then go to a place that does do the laser alignment. My gut feeling is that you will be good to go after that :-)

Sue,

I did the exact same thing to my race truck the last race of the year. I heated the part circled in red and "gently" tapped it in place with a 5 pound hammer. Now something that has not been mentioned here is this would be an awesome opportunity to do an SAS on your VX. Ditch all the torsion bars and IFS stuff and find a Dana 44. You could do a leaf spring front and have nice articulation with minimal install labor going the leaf route.

Just a different idea.....

Greg