got a friend trying to decide which is better. what would you rather have and why?
ar-15 (.223)
or
ak-47 (7.62x39)
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got a friend trying to decide which is better. what would you rather have and why?
ar-15 (.223)
or
ak-47 (7.62x39)
Is the ar15 a gas tube or piston? I've carried an m16 and I'm NOT a fan. Id rather have carryied a bolt action 308, or a PIG. But betwen those 2 I would go with the AK. Its just so much more relibable... but the ar platform is so much more populer and ammo is so easy to get. If you go with an AR first make sure its a gas piston and second make sure its chamberd in 5.56mm so you can shoot both 556 and 223. Thrid make sure you get quality and not a cheap rifle. Or go AK.... it realy comes down to persanl preferance.
Your welcom for the confusion!
I did carry a m16 for 6 year and I hated it! What I carry now as my "oh **** rifle" is an FN PS90. And I love it!
What does he plan to use it for?
^ for shootin, of course.
Shootin what?
If he wants to shoot for accuracy, AR. If he wants a reliable plinker or bug-out gun, AK.
Having said that, my AR has been very reliable. But if the SHTF, I will pull out the FAL.
in my opinion an ak/sks is much more fun to shoot - especially if its an actual ak-47 with an extended mag or drum
Never fired a true AK, but I fire an SKS (AK's grandaddy) on occasion with my friend who owns one. That thing is a tank. Not very accurate and clunky, but absolutely reliable and very easy to maintain. I totally enjoy my M4 and it has never failed me. As accurate as I want it to be and cheaper to fire than the AK. Maintenance is a bit more time consuming, but that's a fair trade off to me.
Just buy anything you can find for sale. Then buy a slide fire stock and a ton of ammo!
FAL, piston driven AR-10, or HK91. Forget little bullets.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidPony
Colt CM901 .308 :thumbup:
...but for the question AK-47 or AR-15? AK-47 - simple and fun to shoot.
he just wants to have at least one of them before they are banned...
something to shoot for fun, nothing serious.
I'm a fan of the AR platform, for all the wicked deviations it's capable of morphing into, with just two pins & a new upper...voila...big bang.Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidPony
A/A .50 Beo...:yesgray:
I don't know, the way folks in Washington are talking I'd worry about having to turn it in for less than I paid for it sometime in the future. They just did a voluntary cash for guns thing in LA and something like 2,000 people showed up. Want to guess how long it will take the feds to try the same thing but make it mandatory? They may never be successful, but you never know...Quote:
Originally Posted by frakkin toaster
Which would work in the most fantastic manner ever. I can just see the criminals with unregistered firearms lining up to turn their weapons into the Fed too. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by vt_maverick
Not trying to change subject. ;)
Anyways, also know that the AR platform is endless when it comes to modification. Whether it be mechanical or aesthetic, the sky is the limit.
When it comes to cheap and reliable, you can't beat an AK47. Piston powered and damn-near impossible to jam. 7.62x39 ammo is very cheap and abundant and I have found with my AK that it is quite accurate too, my Russian SKS takes that accuracy up a notch. Now my Colt AR is no slouch but it cost three times more and can be finicky to fowling due to it's direct impingement gas system. 5.56 ammo also is not as cheap as the 7.62. As others have said though, it is the king of customizable weapons, you can turn it into almost anything! Obviously, personal preference will play a key role in most peoples decision but if I were to choose between the two for a bug out weapon, I'd go with the AK. As for a long-range weapon, I'll go with my Springfield National Match M1A (M14) in 308. I'd go up against almost anyone with that one. (Ok, a Barrett 50 would smoke me!) Just my two cents and I'd like some change back please...:rotate:
I think you'd be surprised. The cops said a huge percentage of those guns in LA were unregistered - it was an amnesty, "no questions asked" event. Keep in mind a lot of those unregistered firearms started out as legal gun sales but were traded/lost/stolen along the way. Cut off the supply of new weapons, buy back existing weapons, and you at least lower the number of available mass shooting devices out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by WormGod
There is obviously no perfect solution to the problem so it will be interesting what pieces and parts being thrown out by gun control advocates and gun rights groups will be welded into a policy.
Yep...they don't call em' the "Barbie Doll for grown up men" for nuth'n...:rolleyesgQuote:
Originally Posted by WormGod
http://www.smisclub.org/picts/ar15_pic.jpg
Also, in case anyone is a little fuzzy on the "facts"...:rolleyesg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EOvH4rVVv6...1600/AR+15.jpg
AR looks cool but if I wanted something to save my life no thanks. Ever wonder why it has a forward assist lever? Cause it jams unless it and it's ammo are clean. AK doesn't have as tight of tolerances so is a little less accurate but won't jam up. I used to carry an M16 A1 and an A2, expensive junk if you ask me. They may have gotten better but the still have a forward assist!
I hate being a know it all...but theres a lot of misinformation being thrown around becaue of what one sees on the history channel. From extensive experience, the AK is just as capable of failure if used by idiots who dont maintain their rifles. I literally got back from training Afghans four weeks ago. You know whats among the most reliable weapons in such places with widespread disrespect of basic rifleman maintenence and cleaning? Lee Enfields.
AFghan Army are armed with M16s. Thier level of jamming decreases with training, and is on par with those with AKs, that the national police are largely armed with. Reliability ismore tied to training than the weapon when it comes to between ak/m16.
As for a forward assist...you realize the ak's forward assist is the fixed charging handle right? The ar15 has a separate one because its charging handle it non reciprocating. Again, from psonal experience, the "forrward assist" is used by untrained riflemen in firefights because they dont know how to clean weapons...I have seen guys kick the Ak handle to chamber or extract. If youve been in the Army, you remember SPORTS, the fwd assist for the m16 is one of those things that is not needed, but for super redundancy. I make no claims to have been in Vietnam...but theM4 is a rock solid weapon. Ive never fired an m16a1 in combat, but i have trained with them. I can tell you reliabilty variables lie with Blanks/bfas, magazines, and (from second hand reading) the different cartridges and terrible training issues they had when the a1 ws first fielded...fifty years ago. Its a different world. Unscientific survey, again, 90% of ftf in the Ar15 is user lack of maintenence. Theres a reason such problems are more widespread (read: virtually confined to) the non-combat personnel...
I love both AK and ar15s for personal use. But, if this were SHTF, as some of you are getting at, think for a minite and realize ar15 parts will be more available, and the common platform with government arms (and ammo) is infinitely more useful than anything the ak would offer... Effective fighting forces,be they insurgents or jackbooted thugs, have weapon uniformity for a reason.
And sorry for the atrocious typos, this i on the ipad, too lazy to get to a pc right now :)
Oh, and if there was question, iraqi and afghan army are fielding brand new FN M16a2 (maybe a3s as well, i don,t remember; either way, they're sticking to iron sights). Just for clarification, they're not vietnam surplus a1s that are fifty years old (those are still used in ROTC, at least as of 6 years ago, hence my only working familiarity with them). They're literally fresh from the box, newer than what the non-combat US Military have slung on super-FOBs (arguably even better maintained). As for the US Army's M4 carbines--the only rifle I've fired in anger. It may as well be a wholly different gun than the a1.
I remember SPORTS LOL! That brings back memories. It always seemed strange to me that they never instructed us to (in my case) to stop with the SPORTS once the jam was cleared. For example most (if not all) jams I experienced were when the round lodged diagonally between the bolt and the chamber as it was fed. The tip of the round would jam against the locking grooves of the chamber (if that makes sense) and the bolt as it slid forward would not have enough umph to push it past that. If I slapped the mag that would allow the round to clear the mag and the bolt would slide home and lock. So instead of SPORTS I would OSS observe, slap, squeeze and this worked almost every time. Come to think of it as I describe this the root cause could have been the mag. This was only in training as I was never in combat and weapons were definitely clean. I've also heard that ammo design may have played a part.
Junk may be too strong a word but I do think the AR is over-engineered and tolerances too tight for a general issue troop weapon. Compare that to the cheaply made mass produced AK that doesn't need the same level of training and maintenance to function effectively.
I think a good analogy would be that Ford may have a racing team but you wouldn't use their racing vehicles for your fleet vehicles. As for SHTF? I'd rather have a shotgun for close in zombie eradication and a sniper rifle for more distant interaction. :bgwb:
BTW I currently have none of the weapons mentioned so everything salted please. My locker only contains a Mini14, SKS, 1911, and a Mustang so what the heck do I know LOL!
Remember:
Rule #1 Cardio
But that's just the thing. That's a myth. The AK fails just as much as the AR15 if it's used by an incompetent user. I believe this myth continues becaue we like labeling our enemies mere rubes. "Evil soviets and vc are peasant conscripts who cant maintain weapons..." And the opposite as well: "the m16 is junk because we have the best military men in the world, it can't possibly be their lack of maintenence"Quote:
Originally Posted by bartmanS4
(btw, youre right about the mags. Most of the ftf can be attributable to follower tilt, weak springs, etc; we have new tan followers, a change from the last 50 years, that combat this, and the widespread use of aftermarket, personal purchase magazines is widespread. Many, including myself, swear by mags like magpul pmags).
But I think theres a reason ar15s are practically the only rifles used in the action shooting sports. Its the only thing accurate enough for the stages and the customizablity. Using that apt Ford analogy, why would any driver choose that fleet car over the purpose built race car? It's obvious if you want to go to the supermarket and dont like cars, youd lean to the taurus or whatever ford sends to rentacar compaines nowadays. But if you're trying to race? If you're a prfessional race car driver (which I hope you'd equate to the professional US military, or even someone serious about actually firing their rifle in anger)? The idea of SHTF seems even more important than race car driving... Why would one go for less accurate and no Parts commanilty when ones life concievably depended on it? This is not to mention the "men,s Barbie" fact that the Ar15 market is the largest in the industry....dont like .223? get .50 beowulf, .300 blk, even 7.62x39 uppers. Buy into the direct impingement fallacy? Go get a piston upper...they even have longstroke AK copies. Want a 10in SBr? 18inch SPR? 24 in varmint rifle? It's yours. You simply cant do that on the AK platform. Want somethig different than what you bought? You need to buy another gun. For the Ar15, on the other hand, you can spend as little as 50 bucks and have smething different than younstarted with.
I do believe every collection needs at least one AK. But with so many criteria, I don't see it being your first choice. Dependable 762x39? The SKS is a better buy as far as price and ruggedness. Not to mention some plausible future where mags are verbotten, 10 round stripper clips and the ability top off are as effecient and maybe even moreso than detachable mags.
All I have to add to this is, Good luck finding one! All of the shops around me are all sold out of pretty much any "black" rifle or home defense shotgun. I've been wanting an AR but not exactly spewing money at the moment, so I tried buying some 30 round mags (cuz I figure those are the most likely to be banned) and they're sold out EVERYWHERE, and that was in december...
Yeh dat..Quote:
Originally Posted by eblank
Though what I saw yesterday might sway the OP's opinion.
I stopped by my local outdoor sports store just to see what they had...AR anything? nada...:(
But they DID have 30 rd banana mags AND some drum mags...both for AK's
Of course they were hideously priced. (IIRC, the drums were around $170-180)
Can't help but notice that the brand name "Bushmaster" has become synonymous within the media for "Instrument of death and destruction!" I kinda wonder how the fine folks at Bushmaster feel about that? They say that any publicity is good publicity but still... As for the AK vs AR debate, I stand by what I said; one third the price and more reliable to boot in the real world. Lee-Enfields? I've got three of 'em. A No.1 Mk.III, a No.4 Mk.I and a No.5 Mk.I "Jungle Carbine", all fine weapons but I wouldn't care to carry one into battle...
There seems to be an ever growing market of tactical pistols in the .22lr caliber.
From the Halo-like ridiculous US Firearms Zip
http://www.usfirearms.com/
To
Carl Walther IWI UZI
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=325645229
I do not have an AR or AK but have been reading this thread to learn more. I have always wanted one and now it seems I might need to fulfill that want sooner than later.
Well, I'd like to think Afghanistan the worst the "real world" has to offer. And there are still Lee Enfields from wwi in use to good effect. Hand to heart, guys...the mythical reliabilty of the AK is overblown. And if youre taling a "real world" with people who have not LIVED with their rifles as trained riflemen, I guarntee the enfield would serve you better than any self-loading rifle. Think of it this way: what would you consider more idiot proof and reliable, a pump shotgun or an autoloading shotgun? Which would you give to your trusted neighbor, who's maybe not as well versed in guns, in a SHTF situation? And price? before the current hysteria, an ar15 could be had for $600. A good Ak is more than that. Unless youre talking a WASR...in which case I laugh at your idea of "reliable."
Just me, but Id steer clear completely. The prices in the evil black rifle realm are simply ridiculous. If I havent disuaded you, I would purposefully seek out MANUFACTUERS or builders (as opposed to gun stores) that have not raised their prices. Furthermore, I'd stockpile lower recievers...you can always buy upper recievers, it's only the lower thats the actual firearm. Lowers are still at their pre hysteria prices of under $300 from rguns. They're backlogged like 8 weeks, but at least they're not jerks like the world thats charging $600 for polymer lowersthat were $120 four weeks ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by JHarris1385
I'd wait until its settled (if ever). Either way, I'd get an SKS because over $1000 for an AK IS RIDICULOUS.
Bushmaster hasnt actually been bushmaster in years. Its just a namebrand now, owned by freedom group. To answer that question, freedom group is trying to cut and run. The guys that WERE bushmaster have a new name at the old factory in Maine. Wyndham something. Theyre slling their old bushmasters with that stamped on the sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Larson
My pre-ban Norinco AK47 with screw-on AK74 muzzle break was $325.00 in 1994 dollars. My post-ban Colt AR15 with bull barrel was $980.00 in 1995 dollars. Both were bought new and both have been thoroughly wrung out over the years in filthy as well as meticulously maintained conditions with a wide variety of ammo and I've yet to have one misfire with the AK and I've short stroked more rounds then I care to remember with the AR. In my real world, that mythical AK reliability is no myth, just sayin'...:_confused
I am primarily a shotgun skeet/hunt gun owner with a Walther PPKs for conceal.
Only considered getting a .22lr pistol just for fun.
But like I said I really am considering buying an AR of sort, but not at these prices.
What sites would you recommend?
I have always heard the AK is neither great at one thing or bad at one thing...thus reliable. However, the near endless possibilities of the AR platform would keep me interested longer.
It's not Freedom Group that's doin' the "cut and run", it's their parent company Cerberus that's doin' the cuttin'. Guess they don't like the bad press...In any case, the name is Bushmaster. Windham Weaponry is the AR manufacturer your referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceCADETzoom
As spacecadet said earlier, building your own AR is an affordable and doable option. Parts are readily available through a host of online retailers and the only part you are registering is the lower reciever, which means that has to be shipped to an FFL dealer or purchased directly through one, everything else can be shipped to your door. Shotgun News has a vast wealth of info and suppliers for everything you need. There's also the benefit of knowing your rifle inside and out because you built it...:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by JHarris1385
Thanks!
Good thread. Any and all other advice and preferences that follows will be appreciated.
Been debating on whether to hit reply, because I don't want this to devolve into a gun forum. BUt, oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Larson
I guess we can agree "real world" is based on anecdotal evidence and personal experience through a straw. My straw is being raised with everything from norincos and maadis through wasr's, yugos and parts bin century's. And of course bushmasters, dpms, one colt, noveske, and countless smaller shops for ar15s (even a few plumcrazy plastic ones!). And to top it off the AK list, the chinese, and indeterminate ak's in Iraq and Afghanistan--utilized in over 35 months of day-to-day living and firing both personally and training BRM to local nationals. Personal experience of the M16a1 all the way through fresh-from-the-box FN M16A3, M4, et al. Both the AK and AR in all conditions from my backyard to "two-way" firing ranges. Had my fair share of failures all around. Few stoppages personal AK or Ar15, in "the backyard," none I actually recall dramatically or specifically. Plenty when I was using weapons on-the-job though, when I was firing something that I didn't "live" with (i.e. qualifying with a weapon I didn't maintain), both AK and AR. Failures among mine privately owned (or my dad's) ran notably less but there were still bad AKs to bad AR15s (olympic comes to mind, dpms too). I'm not naive enough, though, to think all DPMS rifles, for example, are terrible, considering my experience with them was from 20 year old products.
I guess my real world tells me different than the simple "AK GOOD, AR BAD."
I can tell you there's no price advantage right now for anything, because I think anyone who spends more than $1000 for an AK or (off the shelf) AR15 is nuts. But 2010-2012 prices of AR15/AK, on the low end, I don't see it substantially better for the AK. You were looking at $400 WASRs which weren't worth it. ANd $600 AR15s, which were. THen you had $1000 Arsenal AKs which were on par with the AR15, but now you've lost that price advantage.
I think the 1994 prices are off topic, unless you want to bring in the fact at that time you could buy CRATES of Russian tula SKSes for the price of your one Norinco... Either way, there are $2000 AKs AND AR15s being sold right now.
It's tough to find anything in stock now. http://rguns.net/ is still selling, but they're backlogged something like two months. I only bring them up because they haven't raised prices. I'd suggest staying with complete lowers, because at teh end of the day, lower parts kits for stripped lowers bumps the price back up to a complete one anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by JHarris1385
Ammo is scarce, too. Have you thought of those AR15 pattern 22 rifles? M&P15/22? Slightly easier to find and the ammo is still cheap and available-ish.
Ford or Chevy? its all the same. It comes down to personal preference. Take care of your weapon and it will take care of you.