Some thoughts/suggestions regarding the Moab VX ONLY run....

It will never be the same without Todd......AND Linda by his side.

It is no longer a VX only run....hasn't been for a while!


So.

If I can put the stoop chat into Cliff notes ( do correct anything I get wrong!)...


Many people drive a LONG way, and drop a load o'cash to attend the VX Moab event.
Spending a whole day ( out of 4-5 days ) in a lengthy & slow parade on
an easy trail...
.....tests the patience of those looking to flex their off roading cajones!

This year Dave (Gizmo / Rodeo! ) stepped up and took the new & newer
on a trip up Top of The World...a great and stunningly scenic beginners trail.

Many others split into small groups ..by skill level, friendship or whatever...

...and did their own thing.

It worked well...

This is not to disparage Todds VX runs...more to say, his stewardship can never be matched or repeated.


May I suggest, in concert with others who "stoop chatted "on this subject, that the VX ONLY run be retired...in HONOR of Todd.

Its his legacy, and he introduced MANY of us to Moabs beauty and pucker factor !
At times, literally holding our hand as we bested boulders
the size of Yugos ( well..bowling balls, but they looked HUGE!)

If others agree, I would suggest a "new / newer & those that want" type run on the Tuesday...

...led & tail gunned each year by an alternating duo of experienced VX/Isuzu drivers that would like to help newbies.

I would be happy to tail or lead next year...though for the life of me I cant pronounce Cryobatic/Crytobatic/Cytoclactic....CRUST...

...and I can never remember if the ladies pee to the left ..or the guys do!!

I hope this sums up some of the 'stoop' thoughts and chat....

All input & alternative suggestions are very welcome...

:_steering

Jo

"the ladies are always right"

DOHHH....thanks Steve..

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

"the ladies are always right"

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...how could I forget that :o

Jo

Id be happy to permanently volunteer myself for leader or tail gunner.

I would absolutely agree that todd's vx only should be retired, with todds legacy. But I think we should propose a 'moab 101' run rather than a vx only.

The moab 101, would be an introductory course for first timers, refresher for the experienced ones, or just a scenic trail for anyone else who wants to join. That way, anyone who wants to get right at it, can go off an start the week rough and tough ;)
I personally enjoy showing the new guys what thier vehicles can do, and maybe a little show of the upgraded vehicles on optional obstacles.
Lets do it!!!

Sign me up PB! I'm not a noob to off-roading, nor to Moab, but the combination of Moab and VX is new, so I defer to people with the know-how.

I never met Todd, but obviously from the impact he made to people on this forum he was a heck of a nice guy. Let's blaze some trails for him.

This years run was Fins and Things. I lead the VX run on Top of the World 2 years ago.

I dont mind leading trails sometimes, I usually lead when we do trails here, but sometimes its nice to just follow.

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Originally Posted by Gizmo42

This years run was Fins and Things. I lead the VX run on Top of the World 2 years ago.

I dont mind leading trails sometimes, I usually lead when we do trails here, but sometimes its nice to just follow.

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That's right...... You led me down rose garden hill ........ With no skid plates! Thank god for Xanax!

LOL but you did great and didnt get a scratch. And you have a good story to tell.

I say retire it.

Replacing it with a "noob run/hazing"...:naughty:

The possibilities are nearly endless...& we could do water boarding, live fire exercises, simulated bomb disposal, & all kinds of other fun/funny (to the oldsters) activities...:yesgray:

Contests like VX lift(springs & T-Bar crank), troubleshooting codes, & so on & so forth...:_wrench:...:dance:




















Kidd-ing...:laughing:

But I do think we should retire the VX run, we're all jut wheel'n buds, no need to be seperated by model or brand.

And most figure out rather quickly, what skill/build level they should que up with in the morning.

x2 for Xanax...

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Originally Posted by VX crazy

With no skid plates! Thank god for Xanax!

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...way cheaper and more fun than Kilby plates!

:eek:

jo

I agree with your idea Jo, but I would suggest we extend the rotating trail leader / gunner idea to the whole week. Otherwise the newbs and/or members with less interest / capability for difficult trails will spend the rest of the week searching for leaders. Someone stepped up every day, but deciding on a rotation (if not a trail) in advance would help the novice runs be better organized and (hopefully) start earlier.

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by vt_maverick

I agree with your idea Jo, but I would suggest we extend the rotating trail leader / gunner idea to the whole week. Otherwise the newbs and/or members with less interest / capability for difficult trails will spend the rest of the week searching for leaders. Someone stepped up every day, but deciding on a rotation (if not a trail) in advance would help the novice runs be better organized and (hopefully) start earlier.

Just a thought.

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And that has WHAT to do with Xanax?...:confused:...:laughing:

Sorry Ash, couldn't resist...:smilewink

Choosing pre-designated trail Boss's & Tail Gunnerz sounds like some sort of attempt to organize...:eekgray:...:rotate:...:laughing:

Ya might as well try to herd cats...:yesgray:

Ash...you also have to realize that not all that show up are on this board (there are peeps from at least 3 other boards that I know of). Also organization leads to other problems which is why Zuzoo is now an unifficial, unorganized "get together". Organization requires permits, permits require insurance, insurance equals big $$$...to make it leagle. Through Todd we used to get permited under ejs and the insurance for the week was reasonable...then the blm jacked the ins. rates sky high. The insurance wasn't to cover us but to cover damage to trail property. That is when the "organization" ended.

Seems that friends could simply pick times and leaders without requiring legal intervention. But that's not my area of expertise so maybe not.

I'm just saying that for members who can only visit every few years or maybe once ever a tiny bit of organization helps maximize the experience I think. Also for those that can't stay at the Stoop it's difficult to know when and where you're going each day unless you literally camp out there all day. We chose to stay at another hotel so the inevitable baby crying wouldn't bother the group, but in future years others (like Tom since he'll be driving the RV) will probably experience the same issue. So something worth considering I think.

I had a great time and everyone was absolutely welcoming, helpful, and great with the girls. I'm just offering a few thoughts as a new guy to the event to try and make it even better.

IMO...I dont think any set organization is needed.....


...beyond an initial new wheelers/ unmodified run.

I think that by the end of the "newbie" run, and after a beverage and chat at the stoop...
..most will have figured out who to wheel with , and what level of trails to wheel.

In past years many/most groups gathered and took off from the Portal camp ground...
..but now that is off the menu, the departure zone seems to be the "Stoop"

Assembling there in the morning after chatting the evening before seemed to work out fine this year....
...plenty of room, very patient management (:cool:)...and free ice!

:_steering

Jo

I would say staying at the Stoop is critical then. Most days decisions on start times didn't get made until late at night or even a few minutes before leaving. If you're not staying there it can be frustrating, although it's obviously more important to me than it would be to most because of the girls. We did a lot of sitting around and waiting, both at the Stoop and at the hotel.

Why the insistence on having little to no organization? It seems so trivial and far less about legalities than about maintaining some sort of adhoc culture.

I wasn't disagreeing so much as giving a bit of history to how it got to this point Ash.
I think it would be nice to maybe have a set time/place to meet and come up with the next days game plan then everyone could go their marry ways if they have plans other than sitting around the stoop all night.

I tend to agree with getting rid of the "VX Only" run. That started out with Todd or Tone (don't remember which) when ZuZoo was an official event and we had a bunch of other Isuzu's show up (we used to have to sign up for trails online before ever getting to Moab). It gave us some time to spend together with other VX geeks and find out what our little trucks/cars (whatever) were capable of.

Now that ZuZoo is defunct there really aren't many other Isuzu's that show up any more, other than the die hards like Big Swede (Steve), Gizmo (Dave) and a couple of others. The whole ZuZoo has become one big VX run now.

I do agree with a newbie/stock run on Tuesday to help introduce others to the joys of offroading and what the VX's are capable of. I know my first VX only run, with Todd as trail leader, was an eye opening experience for me and it was great to see that many VX's in one place at one time.

As for how to set up trails, leaders and times....that I'm not sure how to solve. I understand that if you aren't staying at The Stoop it would be difficult to find out what is going on unless you have someone who you know you want to wheel with and they stay at The Stoop to figure out what is going on. It did seem to work well, enough, this year with getting the right people together with the right trail leaders, going to the right trails. Even if you aren't at The Stoop at night your best bet would be to show up at 8am and start asking what's going on. Just about all of the groups left The Stoop at 9am and sort of formed up that morning. I know I did two trails by just milling around in the morning and asking who was doing what, and if they would mind if I tagged along.

Well, I can see both sides of the coin here. It is nice to have a 'spur of the moment' so that we can spend stoop time conversing....but to be honest, thats not what the lack of organization is about. I hope you dont take my honesty here as egotism or elitism.
For guys that want to do more 'gnarly' or aggressive trails, it can commonly be difficult to explain to others that their vehicle, or driving skills are not yet experienced enough to complete these trails. Yes, the VX will get through just about every trail there, but sometimes if the VX isnt equiped enough, it can be difficult and damaging.
I'm not saying you were in this group, because I, unfortunately, did not get to catch a trail with you. But, historically, there has been new guys that dont understand the scope of difficulty and damage these trails can do.

Obviously, it just needs to be explained, but you dont want to offend a first timer, ya know?

Clearly, I lean more towards the same side as you, ashley. It would be great to have some form of organization, because it really sucks to not be able to get moving towards the trail until 10 or 11 am, that really doesnt work well if you want to do any kind of serious trail, or know whats going on.

I can tell you that it was extremely frustrating for me this year and I was only there for 3 days.
Ash, generally, there are 4 or 5 guys who are just kinda the experienced guys of the group and they just say, im headed to mcdonalds at 8 am, whoever wants to run gold bar rim, meet there, we leave at 8:15.

This next year, I'm going back to that approach again. I dont really consider myself an experienced wheeler. Especially when you look at guys that have been there for 10+ years. But apparently the majority of the guys who lead these trails weren't there, or not wanting to lead them. So I will try my best to take a lead spot, but dont be angry if I take us down a few wrong turns. ;)

Again, i hope it doesnt seem elitist, but.... you asked :)

Now, also understand that there are MANY guys in moab who know and understand that they dont want to beat up their vehicle, and they understand as well which trail leaders do easier stuff, and which ones challenge themselves.

But, thats a hard thing to explain to a first timer, I think because when they do the first day and they see the capabilities of their little VX, they want to see it do more and more.... until something breaks, then its really a bummer. So, I dont want to lead someone into something where they are going to break their vehicle, and not be able to get home without spending $$$$$$$$$$.

I think mark hit the nail on the head. I think the best advise for a first timer might be to ask around and see which trail leader they should be following that does a trail at their skill level. Good advise for the upcoming years :) (thanks ash)

I did that when I started, didnt know anybody at all. I asked around in the evening and the morning who was doing what and if they thought my truck could do it.

There havent been any organized trails or leaders (except vx run) since I've been going. It all seems to work out fine. Show up at the stoop at night and see whats going on, a lot of ppl decide by then what they are going to do. And show up before 9am and ask around again, might find a trail you would rather do instead.

One change I will be making for any trails I lead, I will not be waiting around. Everyone should be ready by the time I am or they miss it. You should know when you get back the previous day if you need gas and food, do it then.

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but dont be angry if I take us down a few wrong turns.

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Or the wrong trail all together! :D

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Originally Posted by pbkid

... or driving skills are not yet experienced enough to complete these trails. Yes, the VX will get through just about every trail there, but sometimes if the VX isnt equiped enough, it can be difficult and damaging.
.... But, historically, there has been new guys that dont understand the scope of difficulty and damage these trails can do.

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Um note to self its really hard doing Cliffhanger in 2wd

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Originally Posted by pbkid

Again, i hope it doesnt seem elitist, but.... you asked :)

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You are forgiven :p

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Originally Posted by pbkid

Now, also understand that there are MANY guys in moab who know and understand that they dont want to beat up their vehicle....

.... until something breaks, then its really a bummer. So, I dont want to lead someone into something where they are going to break their vehicle, and not be able to get home without spending $$$$$$$$$$.

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Hmmm I knew I shouldnt have had Kenny behind me... Twice now :)

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Originally Posted by Triathlete

Or the wrong trail all together! :D

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HAHA x 2

I do agree that the VX only run should be retired. I would also like to suggest that next year we label it "Beginners run"... If you haven't done a trail or want a easy trail to freshen up on your wheeling then by all means. I still think it should be voted on with whatever trail, leader and caboose that wants to volunteer. I agree with Giz on leaving on time. Whoever is going on a trail if you cant make a effort to show up then you may/will get left behind. Some trails take "longer than expected" and no one wants to get back at to the Stoop too late :( . This was the first year I filled up with gas the night before and what a difference it made because I wasn't as rushed in the morning. Another reason I like the idea of retiring it, because too many vehicles on one trail makes for a "even longer" day.

Ashley having kids myself I understand how organization is needed. Also not staying at the Stoop can make it some what difficult figuring out what tomorrows plans are. Hey boss man is there any way to make a "Sticky thread" for that week on the boards? That way it can be posted what run is being done that day and who is leading it.

One of the reasons that Todd always kept the trail he picked for the VX run off of the interweb was that the BLM will sometimes go looking on the internet for groups that are trying to skirt the insurance requirements. Then they will show up and hammer somebody with fines and such. This is why trail runs are organized "ad hoc" these days.

Perhaps it would be possible to set a time in the evening for sort of a meeting of the minds to pick trails for the next day, so folks with other priorities (such as kids) don't have to wait around for hours.

Or better yet, assign someone who is going to hang out at the stoop as your proxy and have them call you with the scoop when it becomes known...

I did a good bit of clunking on Fins and Things so I knew after day one that I wanted to stay on the "bunny" trails. No worries about overachieving here. :)

I think all that's needed are deadlines for decisions to be made and runs to start (as Gizmo42 suggested). Sue was my proxy at the Stoop but even she didn't know what was going on until really late at night or fairly late the next morning. Tuesday went great, but on Wednesday I got a phone call saying we were leaving in an hour I think, and then it was 3 hours after that before we actually left. And then Thursday morning I got a phone call saying we were leaving in 15 minutes (which did actually happen). If I did want to go (I had already decided to give the girls the day off because they were exhausted) packing up the kids, loading the cooler in the car, and driving over takes at least that long, so I probably would have missed the run anyway. Again I realize that's fairly unique to my situation and it wouldn't be a problem for most.

Maybe decide on at least the novice trail and leader/tail each evening by 9 (gives time for everyone to grab dinner and then discuss on the Stoop) and then plan to leave each day at 9? I agree there's no need to publish the trail schedule online if you have a proxy at the Stoop. As long as a decision is made far enough in advance to let off-siters know I think you're good to go.

Here are some of my rambling thoughts:

As a newbie, changing the name from "VX Only" to "newbie run" doesn't bother me. Heck, I told someone that I regretted not riding along with someone else before I went off road for the first time ever. (I had no clue what I was doing.)

"VX only" - who cares. Trucks are trucks but people are people. Over the last couple years, I could have joined any of a half dozen local clubs and visited trails here in-state before I went to Moab. But, I wanted to meet everyone from THIS group. It's the people, not the vehicle as far as I'm concerned.

I noticed the skill levels splintering off - and took no offense to that at all. I also saw other people asking more experienced members, "Should I pass on this run?" due to a lack of modifications / skill levels. I didn't get any indication that anyone was offended. Instead I saw an appreciation for the advice and guidance. I doubt I'm the only newbie who would want to feel like we're holding people back. But... it would definitely be appreciated if some experienced people would still help guide us noobs from time to time.

Having vague plans for the next day's run(s) doesn't bother me at all because I'M ON VACATION and kinda appreciate a lack of structure. I learned quickly that the only thing I really needed was to show up with lunch, fuel and be at the stoop before 8 or 9am. Plans change - I was in a line for one trail Wednesday, then backed out so I could go on a different run that seemed more appealing right before that original group left.

I loved getting photos of a BIG group of VXs lined up on a trail, but immediately learned how big groups take a long, looong time. Maybe it would be better to split them up and leave after 1-2 hour gap?

Another thing the new people may not realize is if we have so many people we need a permit, which is why Todd the last several years kept it on the downlow........and with all the same vehicles we wouldn't be able to fib our way out of it.

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Originally Posted by RickOKC

But, I wanted to meet everyone from THIS group. It's the people, not the vehicle as far as I'm concerned.

I noticed the skill levels splintering off - and took no offense to that at all. I also saw other people asking more experienced members, "Should I pass on this run?" due to a lack of modifications / skill levels. I didn't get any indication that anyone was offended. Instead I saw an appreciation for the advice and guidance. I doubt I'm the only newbie who would want to feel like we're holding people back. But... it would definitely be appreciated if some experienced people would still help guide us noobs from time to time.

Having vague plans for the next day's run(s) doesn't bother me at all because I'M ON VACATION and kinda appreciate a lack of structure. I learned quickly that the only thing I really needed was to show up with lunch, fuel and be at the stoop before 8 or 9am. Plans change - I was in a line for one trail Wednesday, then backed out so I could go on a different run that seemed more appealing right before that original group left.

I loved getting photos of a BIG group of VXs lined up on a trail, but immediately learned how big groups take a long, looong time. Maybe it would be better to split them up and leave after 1-2 hour gap?

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I mean this as no offence to you Ashley, I very much enjoyed meeting you & the fam...:thumbup: GREAT people...:yesgray:


But Rick has the absolute right attitude for Moab...flexibility is key...being able to roll with what comes, is a real handy skill set to have when there is, by design, very little structure.

I also agree, some of us old timers should be trying harder to mentor the first timers...:mbrasd:
And I will try to do better next year...:yesgray:
I'm FAR from trail leader material, (I get lost too easily), but I'm a helluva tail gunn'r...:smilewink

On the other side of that coin...I'm on vacation too, & the last thing I need, is for a bunch of people to be disappointed in me because I'm too hung to wheel...that'd be a bummer man...:(...:smilewink

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Originally Posted by Ldub

I mean this as no offence to you Ashley, I very much enjoyed meeting you & the fam...:thumbup: GREAT people...:yesgray:


But Rick has the absolute right attitude for Moab...flexibility is key...being able to roll with what comes, is a real handy skill set to have when there is, by design, very little structure.

I also agree, some of us old timers should be trying harder to mentor the first timers...:mbrasd:
And I will try to do better next year...:yesgray:
I'm FAR from trail leader material, (I get lost too easily), but I'm a helluva tail gunn'r...:smilewink

On the other side of that coin...I'm on vacation too, & the last thing I need, is for a bunch of people to be disappointed in me because I'm too hung to wheel...that'd be a bummer man...:(...:smilewink

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Too hung to wheel?? Wow.....gotta see that!

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Originally Posted by VX crazy

Too hung to wheel?? Wow.....gotta see that!

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Whaddya MEAN?...:confused:

You were the little bug in my ear, while I was getting all greasy & dirty, making funny about my fly being down (it wasn't, I wear button fly)...didn't you see it then?

:laughing:.:rotate:.:laughing:.:rotate:.:laughing:

Staying at the Stoop certainly does help to be in on the plans, but I remember one night we had 2-3 trail options we were discussing at midnight and I don't think we really settled on one until the next morning as we were lining up to head out. Personally though, I enjoy that style of organization (or lack there of) because like others said, I'm on vacation and its way more fun and spontaneous that way.

As for trying to figure out what trails to run and with who, that's one nice thing about the big beginner run on Tuesday to feel out how your rig and driving abilities line up with others so you can find trail buddies. I mostly stuck with the same group all week, running a few trails with Mark, Kat and Jon. I had it easy because, while I don't have much trail experience, I have a really modded truck so my driving experience was my limiting factor and not my trucks capabilities.

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that's one nice thing about the big beginner run on Tuesday to feel out how your rig and driving abilities line up with others so you can find trail buddies. I mostly stuck with the same group all week,

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Thats what I did when I first started. Now that I know the trails better I have a better idea of which ones I shouldnt run but still dont know on all of them. Even with being lifted and a rear locker I still have more trouble then others because my gas tank is on the side and hangs low. That with long wheel base means I get high centered easier and have much less break over angle then others.

One other thing to mention, if you do miss out on trail runs there are many very easy (bumpy dirt road easy) trails you can go do that are very scenic. I did that sort of thing saturday since I was tired and got to the stoop late. Also didnt feel like beating up on my truck anymore. So I just went sight seeing by myself.

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Originally Posted by Gizmo42

. Also didnt feel like beating up on my truck anymore. So I just went sight seeing by myself.

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X2!! I'm doing that more and more.I like it

This thread seems to have morphed from the original questions/comments about the "VX only run"....

...to discussion about the organization of runs for the entire week !!


As far as the VX only run is concerned...
Comments seem to favor retiring the "VX Only" run and putting on an easy ( "newbie" ) run on the Tuesday..
......led and tail gunned by a couple of more experienced wheelers...
...and it seems there are plenty happy to take the lead/tail.

So I guess that will sort its self out nearer the time next year.


Regarding the rest of the weeks runs...
Staying at the "stoop" may have its advantages ( and may not!!)...
..but it seems most runs start & end up back there...
...if only for the post run stories/chat/cocktails /wrenching-fixes...etc

To me, it seems to work as a direct result of its ad lib nature...

After that first Tuesday run, it has become 'tradition' to have the Monkey shake party at the stoop....:cool:

What better time to solidify new aquaintances made that first day, catch up with
past years friends,and get some plans laid for the following day?

In my experience, after that...the following days runs seem to pretty much
sort themselves out based on the usual skill/modifications/scenic/gnarly/friendships basis.

No scenario is going to suit everyone...
BUT.... the Stoop seems to be a good general meeting place...
...and short of "sign up sheets" the night before (:eek:), the overall results seem pretty good.

Maybe I'm biased...cause I get almost as much pleasure talking VX , learning VX..fixing VX stuff...
....and meeting new & veteran Moab'ers at the stoop as I do driving the trails!

Lets not over organize this...

....and being on holiday means ..RELAX!



jo

Ya may as well try to herd cats...:laughing:

MeeeOwwww.
meow, meow,meow
Wheres the litter box?

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Originally Posted by arcobarco

MeeeOwwww.
meow, meow,meow
Wheres the litter box?

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Now THERE is a Dude I met recently...that "gets it!"...:laughing: