Driver's Tail light guard- NEED INPUT

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03/06/2012, 02:14 PM
VX KAT

Driver's Tail light guard- NEED INPUT
Having the Fab shop make tail light guards (like wekilled and Julian911 have)

Passenger side- No problem, 2 metal tabs still allow door to close w/o rubbing

PROBLEM- Driver's side-
- Clearance between edge of plastic lens and left edge of tail gate is smaller than other side, smaller by at least 3/8" ! :freek:.
- Then it gets worse when rear door is opened about 45 degrees, the clearance on the INNER GRAY vertical part of lens is extremely small....about 1/16".
- The metal tabs will really chew up the metal edge of door.
- Haven't heard back from Julian or Doug on how they handled this, or even if they had an issue....handmade and all that....
- Since I don't know what it looks like behind tail lamp unit.....and the gray vertical part of the lamp unit does appear to be biased to the right a bit more than other side...
1) Is there any way to move the light unit to the left some way? Shim it?

2) Do we dare notch the edge of the metal door (maybe 1/8") and apply primer and touch up paint?

3) Do we sand down the vertical inner gray part of lamp, (this gray part is not visible unless you open gate and look in the space)......AND / OR sand down the edge of the plastic lens itself? (Realizing we don't want to break the "seal" on that lamp and have moisture get in....I snapped a used tail lamp on ebay this morning just in case)

4) Use much thinner metal for these tabs...would they be strong enough?

5) Do we take a COMPLETELY different approach and drill about 4-6 mounting holes symmetrically along the outline of the lens and have metal attachment tabs welded to the guard? We wouldn't use any of the 3 mounting points Doug and Julian used. That would mean drilling into the body metal and the cladding :freek:

Sorry, no pics.
ANY SUGGESTIONS / GUIDANCE since many of you know what that area looks like?

Thanks! :thanx: :wave:
03/06/2012, 02:35 PM
Y33TREKker

Going by Julian's thread at least, it looked like a lot of time custom fitting the brackets/tabs was necessary to get his "just right", so I imagine what you're experiencing is normal.

Things like this are difficult to offer any input on if a person isn't standing right there looking at the clearances, so I'd say just give it some time and either you or your fabricator will eventually have an AHA! moment and determine what is needed to make it work.

And out of curiosity, are you wanting functional guards meaning that metal would be your first preference, or is it mostly a visual standpoint you're operating from?

If it's more of a visual thing, what would be the chance of picking up a set of GTS smoked tail light covers and simply cutting out sections of those so that the remaining material would give you the look you want?
03/06/2012, 06:07 PM
vt_maverick

Seems to me that drilling holes into the lens defeats the whole point of lens/light guards, so I definitely wouldn't go that route. I'm with Trek on this, especially as it relates to #4:

Quote:

Originally Posted by VX KAT

4) Use much thinner metal for these tabs...would they be strong enough?

Strong enough for what? To be a real guard, or just to stay on at speed and over bumps? If the latter I would think the attachment points could be really thin since the covers will be fairly light and largely out of the way of wind.
03/06/2012, 06:29 PM
Ldub

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

Things like this are difficult to offer any input on if a person isn't standing right there looking at the clearances, so I'd say just give it some time and either you or your fabricator will eventually have an AHA! moment and determine what is needed to make it work.

I'm agreeing with Trek too...without "eyes on", there is no answer to this question...:_confused

Sorry Suzee...:flower: You know I still :heart: ya...:yesgray:

But that's what fab guys are supposed to be able to figure out.
03/06/2012, 06:46 PM
VX KAT

it's mostly visual/aesthetic, but some functional aspect with all these nasty cats claw bush things around here that etch the side of the car and lens, .....:rollo: I really like the look of the metal guards (call me old school I guess) so wouldn't be happy with the GTS smoked ones, either as is, or if I cut out sections to make it appear it has horizontal "bars".

STATUS UPDATE......

As post #1 says....fab shop started, but found MY Driver's side clearance too limited.

Last week some brand new Manik tail light guards for 98-02 Rodeos (style #488659) popped up on ebay, so I snapped up a pair in case they may work out.

Came today, after I started this thread. Look great, took them up to the fab shop. Metal tabs are much thinner...so that's definitely part of the solution on the custom ones. Have to re-locate and change the angle of the 2 metal tabs to line up with our VX tail light screws (like wekilled mentioned too).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110833475533...9#ht_500wt_878

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...I8Mgw60_58.jpg

Here's the tabs they fabbed so far (on pass side, but too thick for Driver's side)
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...DSC_4729-1.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...1/DSC_4730.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...DSC_4731-1.jpg

So to recap this classic Suzy fiasco....er, um, I mean project.....

Plan A -Black plastic ones...wrong curvature..... :(

Plan B -Stainless steel with flat metal instead of tubular style....wrong curvature and no one can bend the suckers.... :mado:

Plan C - Custom made from scratch....my specific VX rear gate tolerance on driver's side is really narrow......... :_brickwal

Plan D - Use the Manik guards, re-locate the thinner tabs, then evaluate if we can shave or shim the lens in some way AND / OR notch the edge of the rear door. Yes, I THINK I'm willing to alter the metal edge of the rear door (and cladding edge) to make this work....:rollo:...while making sure lamp integrity is maintained.

So......tomorrow they'll evaluate the Manik guards.....and we'll see what has to be done to the lens or gate......stay tuned......
.

Still welcome any advice / input /cautions /suggestions!
.
.
......and yes, I'm going to get a 2nd opinion tomorrow from my other "regular" off-road shop.....
Come on guys, you've got custom fabbed sandrails, VW buses, pick-ups, and other custom things all over your shop....what's so freakin' hard about this? Are they afraid because my VX is so pristine and this is the first time we've worked together and they're not sure how flexible I am, etc...? Could be.

Plus, I have a horrible, I mean HORRIBLE chest cold and can hardly speak (as V can attest to), so all my communication has been in a raspy whisper which doesn't help.....:goof:
03/06/2012, 06:55 PM
Ldub

Quote:

Originally Posted by VX KAT

took them up to the fab shop. Metal tabs are much thinner...so that's definitely part of the solution on the custom ones.

I'm sorry, but that's the kind of thing a good fab shop should be able to figure out...bust out da grinder...:naughty:

However, knowing how picky you are, they may be a bit gun shy...:smilewink

But that's just you...:flower: And that's O K
03/06/2012, 07:13 PM
ron

Couldn't you have the tabs snake back to the surface of the lens about a .5" thus moving connection point towards the inside of the light profile and clearing te swing radius of the opening door?
03/06/2012, 07:29 PM
blacksambo

Have holding brackets only on the leading edge of the left lens. I know this is not as strong but it sure makes things a whole lot easier.
03/06/2012, 07:38 PM
JoFotoz

Not liking the tabs going under the cladding...and bowing it out.

How about using the cladding Torx screws (Put in longer ones)..
.... as mounting points.

OK..it will only be two point mounting either side.....
But this should solve your Drivers side issue too..I think!

jo
03/06/2012, 10:09 PM
VX KAT

Definitely frustrated shop hasn't solved this on their own....

Already mentioned the bowing out of the cladding had to be corrected...which led to the discussion that I thought the tabs looked way too thick for the task. I took my caliper with me...the Manik tabs are about 1/16" (including the powdercoat) vs. 1/8".

Dub, I've actually told them over and over, I'm flexible, not that picky and understand some "compromises" may have to be made to make this all work. ....specifically so they wouldn't be gun shy.
I also said I didn't know what it looked like behind the lens, so I wasn't sure how to proceed. That's why I hired them!

Ron, are you saying have the metal tabs snake up through the actual plastic lens housing and up to the surface of the plastic lens? I wasn't quite sure if I got that correctly?

On a positive note......the aluminum tread plate sills came out great! :thumbup:
Used the existing screws and cladding bolts on sill to secure it. Had them take it down around the lowest piece of cladding which means it shows with door closed. They suggested I cut it off higher so it didn't show. I'm still thinking on that...must solve the tailguards first.

This shop is super busy (which I thought was a really good sign), there must be 15 different off-road vehicles of various types around.....and my truck's been there a week already. Maybe the busy schedule explains why they weren't really getting creative on this problem...not a good excuse, just a thought I had.

....to be continued.....:o
03/06/2012, 10:44 PM
lasturbo

Hi KAT,
Forgive my ignorance but are you just doing these for looks or actual protection? Obviously they may protect from some types of brush but any type of impact may do more damage than just maybe losing a lens. Coming from my Land Rover dealer roots, those guards were weak and any type of impact and/or catching on something actually ripped from the body damaging the surrounding area requiring body shop and paint = $$$. The way yours are mounted could potentially be the same and more damage as a result......But we personalize our vehicles to our own desired taste and I applaude your persistence to make these work. I just hope they are not charging you an arm and a leg for fabrication. Good luck! :)
03/06/2012, 10:46 PM
Y33TREKker

Quote:

Originally Posted by VX KAT

...Ron, are you saying have the metal tabs snake up through the actual plastic lens housing and up to the surface of the plastic lens? I wasn't quite sure if I got that correctly?...

If I had to guess, I'd say that Ron was suggesting having those existing tabs made longer so they could then have additional 90 degree (or so) bends added that would follow the contours of the taillight lens...which would position the tabs the guards screwed/bolted into parallel with the plastic lens of the taillight.

Bosses could be placed on the back of those tabs (the sides facing the taillight) for use with the screws/bolts holding on the guards you're installing, but neither the tabs or the bosses would ever actually touch the taillight lens.

Granted, that would add an additional step if it became necessary to change a bulb in one of the taillights because those mounting pieces would then also have to be removed before being able to pull the taillight off, but, that's the price you pay for having custom $#!+. :bwgy:
03/06/2012, 11:53 PM
VX KAT

Quote:

Originally Posted by lasturbo

Hi KAT,
Forgive my ignorance but are you just doing these for looks or actual protection? Obviously they may protect from some types of brush but any type of impact may do more damage than just maybe losing a lens. Coming from my Land Rover dealer roots, those guards were weak and any type of impact and/or catching on something actually ripped from the body damaging the surrounding area requiring body shop and paint = $$$. The way yours are mounted could potentially be the same and more damage as a result......But we personalize our vehicles to our own desired taste and I applaude your persistence to make these work. I just hope they are not charging you an arm and a leg for fabrication. Good luck! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

If I had to guess, I'd say that Ron was suggesting having those existing tabs made longer so they could then have additional 90 degree (or so) bends added that would follow the contours of the taillight lens...which would position the tabs the guards screwed/bolted into parallel with the plastic lens of the taillight.

Bosses could be placed on the back of those tabs (the sides facing the taillight) for use with the screws/bolts holding on the guards you're installing, but neither the tabs or the bosses would ever actually touch the taillight lens.

Granted, that would add an additional step if it became necessary to change a bulb in one of the taillights because those mounting pieces would then also have to be removed before being able to pull the taillight off, but, that's the price you pay for having custom $#!+. :bwgy:

Sad but true :mbrasd:...love the look....really want them....and yes maybe 10% is about protection from really tough chaparral around here.
I know 'zactly whatcha mean about the damage potential of all grill guards...the cowcatcher on our D90 was well known to damage the heck out of the front...I can see where the tail guards could get yanked off too and cause a real mess.

That's also why I favored the FLAT metal style (stainless but would get powdercoated)...as I thought they could be mounted a little more flush to the plastic lens....or dare I say....use 3M double stick tape? But they're so robust, nobody can bend them.

I asked if they could heat them up to soften the metal and just open them up a bit (the curvature angle)...but guy told me today because the horizontal bars had a larger flat top surface , it would be really difficult to get them to spread wider w/o damaging them (I don't know, is it like bubble gum and you stretch it and it gets real thin in the center??) :_thinking I thought it was mostly re-shaping the metal, not stretching it. ANYBODY KNOW SOMEONE THAT COULD RESHAPE THESE?

TREK, thanks I do understand now exactly what you're saying (that Ron said...:laugho:) Yes, they were already planning on making the tabs take a 90 degree turn to run parallel with the lens..... and then another turn outward to mate up to the guard. You can kind of see that 3D style of the Manik tabs in the pic...it's not just an "L" shape, it's 3D
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...I8Mgw60_58.jpg

Can see L-shape tab on wekilled's pic here: It's coming from that last cladding screw, then 90 degrees outward, and then another angle again to match up to the vertical tubing.
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...ight_Guard.jpg

Stainless ones have flat top surface on the horizontal bars:
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...1/DSC_3837.jpg
03/07/2012, 10:47 AM
Y33TREKker

I'm no professional metal worker mind you, but if you like the stainless set that you have, I'm thinking the best choice your fabricator would have of making those work would be along the lines of chopping the roof on a vehicle based on the idea that the shortest distance between any two points is a straight line.

Even if the metal could be heated and re-bent, the excess length of the guard from one side of the taillight to the other would still be there. To get each crossbar to follow the contour of the taillight more closely and the sides to still line up, some length would have to be removed. How much length would depend on what kind of clearance you wanted between the guard and the taillight.

For example, if you cut one of those stainless guards in half from top middle to bottom middle at the center bend, aligned each side of the guard to the appropriate side of the taillight, then proceeded to bend the pieces (BFH, rubber mallet, etc) so that they'd follow the contour of the taillight starting at the outside edges and working towards the middle, when you arrived at the middle you would have some excess length that would have to be removed before the two pieces of the guard could be welded back together. (Your fabricators would have to weld the two pieces back together, then grind down the welds to make the squared/flattened shapes match again, which shouldn't be an issue if you're going to have them powder coated, or for that matter, even if you wanted to leave them stainless since the stainless could be polished out again too).

It doesn't look like as much length would have to be removed from the outline of the guards as would have to be removed from the crossbars, but I'm sure your fabricators would see that too.
03/07/2012, 11:07 AM
VX KAT
Now that's an idea worth discussing further with the fab guys! Thanks TREK! :thumbup: I think I need "Flem" from Sons of Guns"!!
- Cut 'em in half vertically at the junction of the 90 degree angle,
- remove any excess length on the horizontal bars,
- PERHAPS fab up and insert a horizontal piece that has correct corner angle,
- address angle of outline frame
- weld 'em all back together at proper angle/curvature
- . Grind down the weld to be flat.
- ..get powdercoated.
- Seriously consider 3M double stick tape...
....hmmmm....hmmmm.....:?:
03/07/2012, 11:12 AM
tom4bren

I don't think that those bends that you're talking about are going to happen.

Think about bending a ruler. You can bend it along the flat of the ruler but you'll never be able to bend it along the edge. Even if you're able to do it, you'll end up deforming the cross section shape.

That said ... I'm not a metal worker either so ... no charge for my opinion.:)
03/07/2012, 11:24 AM
VX KAT

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom4bren

I don't think that those bends that you're talking about are going to happen.

Think about bending a ruler. You can bend it along the flat of the ruler but you'll never be able to bend it along the edge. Even if you're able to do it, you'll end up deforming the cross section shape.

That said ... I'm not a metal worker either so ... no charge for my opinion.:)

oh, I see what you mean, and I think that must be the same thing the guy was trying to tell me yesterday about the top flat surface.....

??? Maybe cut out the horizontal bars entirely, reshape the outline frame angle, fab some crossbars (try to make styling acceptable), weld 'em up. ???

Probably all possible with unlimited money! :(

I'm def going forward with the tubular style, and then if they think they can tackle the flat ones, and it works out, I can always sell the first set.
03/07/2012, 11:40 AM
tom4bren

Quote:

Originally Posted by VX KAT

Maybe cut out the horizontal bars entirely, reshape the outline frame angle, fab some crossbars (try to make styling acceptable), weld 'em up.

Tubular Dudette.

They could probably salvage the cross bars but they'd have to cut them loose from both ends, bend them out flatter and then shape the ends to re-weld to the frame (I just noticed in the pic that the crossbars narrow down to almost square in cross section near the center so the flattening may actually be possible).

On the other hand, I don't like the fact that the frame doesn't really match the shape of our tail lights anyway so I don't think that the end product will be a good solution.

Again: IMHO - ya got what ya paid for.
03/07/2012, 01:15 PM
vt_maverick

You may have already said this in your other thread, but you did already reach out to actual tail guard manufacturers on this right?
03/07/2012, 01:29 PM
VX KAT

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom4bren

Tubular Dudette.

They could probably salvage the cross bars but they'd have to cut them loose from both ends, bend them out flatter and then shape the ends to re-weld to the frame (I just noticed in the pic that the crossbars narrow down to almost square in cross section near the center so the flattening may actually be possible).

On the other hand, I don't like the fact that the frame doesn't really match the shape of our tail lights anyway so I don't think that the end product will be a good solution.

Again: IMHO - ya got what ya paid for.

Yeah, I can see your point if I used the stainless ones and had them really close or double-taped to the lens, their footprint would need to be really spot on. But they also seem to be the "most" accurate footprint shape of the 3 I've now had in hand. Plus there's 9 pairs left on ebay in case somebody else wants to get them.

I was telling Dave about all the latest, and maybe I'll just go and buy a few strips of the door molding and make'em like Dub's....:_brickwal That would eliminate the risk of damage also....:goof:
Dub- is the outline/footprint all one piece? How'd you do the sharp turns...heat?
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...S/DSCN1619.jpg

Stay tuned ya'll......
03/07/2012, 01:31 PM
VX KAT

Quote:

Originally Posted by vt_maverick

You may have already said this in your other thread, but you did already reach out to actual tail guard manufacturers on this right?

Yup, every one I could find...Steelcraft, Manik, Aries and few others...called them all, long discontinued and none in stock anywhere...ebay is the only place they might pop up...and the Manik ones did
03/07/2012, 01:48 PM
vt_maverick

Just didn't know if anyone would be willing to design new ones or put old ones back into limited production. Never know, if they have the molds already on the shelf or the CAD drawings already in the system... but unfortunately it sounds like no one does or is willing. :(
03/07/2012, 02:03 PM
VXorado

Quote:

Originally Posted by VX KAT

Stay tuned ya'll......

Good luck Sue.

Oh the joys of owning a VX, everything seems like a never ending project :).
03/07/2012, 02:17 PM
tom4bren

You otta try building a FRIGGIN hitch!!!:)
03/07/2012, 11:27 PM
lasturbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by VX KAT

Now that's an idea worth discussing further with the fab guys! Thanks TREK! :thumbup: I think I need "Flem" from Sons of Guns"!!

Cut 'em in half vertically at the junction of the 90 degree angle,
remove any excess length on the horizontal bars,
PERHAPS fab up and insert a horizontal piece that has correct corner angle,

address angle of outline frame

weld 'em all back together at proper angle/curvature
. Grind down the weld to be flat.
..get powdercoated.

Seriously consider 3M double stick tape...

....hmmmm....hmmmm.....:?:
Nice!!!!!!!!! Our best to your venture!
03/08/2012, 06:51 AM
Ldub

Quote:

Originally Posted by VX KAT

I was telling Dave about all the latest, and maybe I'll just go and buy a few strips of the door molding and make'em like Dub's....:_brickwal That would eliminate the risk of damage also....:goof:
Dub- is the outline/footprint all one piece? How'd you do the sharp turns...heat?
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...S/DSCN1619.jpg

I used nothing fancier than an anvil pruning shear...

http://content.answcdn.com/main/cont...ners/f0015.jpg

To form a scarf joint where the ends meet at the bottom of the lens.(not nearly as steep as in illustration)

http://rabbitwoodworks.com/images/Jo...carf-joint.jpg

By holding the shears at an angle when I made the cut.
Also did the same where the horizontal pieces meet the vertical sides.
And yes, the perimeter is all one continuous piece, as said, jointed at the bottom/middle of the lens.

If you get the same stuff I got, (I bought a whole roll @ NAPA) It'll almost turn the sharpest radius. A little bit of the sharpest corner is visible behind the molding, but...:_confused...I just blacked that out with a sharpie marker.

I found it easiest to remove the tail light, clean it up real well with dish detergent & water, then clean it again with a little rubbing alcohol on a rag.

Then, I put it in my lap & started cutting & forming, peeling & sticking.

Go to an auto parts store & ask to see their Trim Guard catalog to find a narrow 1/2 round shape...OR, there's always ebay...:smilewink

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1-2-X...item2ea3a3d693
03/09/2012, 10:22 PM
wekilled

Let me know if you want some extra pics with the doors open. My screws went through the black plastic lip on the taillight, not the lens. I think Julians were a little different-I used his photo as a jumping off point. Love to tell you it was easy (not so much). I had trouble with the drivers side as well, which is a narrower fit on my VX as well. I also made the mistake of (originally) having the screw stick out too far and it caught on the door at first when I closed it, and scraped it up (I plan on painting the VX anyway-so I was pissed off, but no regrets) I want to do some fine tuning later to the angles -- once I get set up at Fort Benning in May. With the three anchor points you can shake the VX by grabbing the guards, so they are functional. In total I spent $40 for the welding and same for the guards on eBay.
03/09/2012, 10:24 PM
wekilled

.