Suggestions for LED Turn Signal Rapid Flash?

Did some searching but couldn't find anything readily at hand... Billy and I attempted to convert my front and rear turn signals to LEDs this weekend with mixed results. I bought (4) bulbs and (4) 6 Ohm resistor / load balancers from V-LEDs for the install. We did the rear signals first (one bulb + one resistor for each signal) and they worked great (normal bulbs were still up front at this point). But when we did the same for the front, both front AND back started blinking fast. For S&G's we removed the resistors up front and left the LEDs in and still had the fast blink. But when we put the regular bulb back (resistors in place or not) the rear LEDs went back to normal.

Ideas? :_thinking

P.S. I am VASTLY more impressed with V-LED's products vs. those of Autolumination. From packaging to bulbs to resistors V-LED's products are obviously much higher quality. I think I'm done with Autolumination...

you will need to change the flasher relay to get the right flash on these LED bulbs, The flasher relay uses the bulbs' current to trigger each flashes, and the LED bulbs draw sooooo much less current compare to the regular bulb. LED are like 0.4 amp vs. 2 amp. you can go ebay and find a LED flasher for like $5 shipped from china ( downside is it'll take a week or 10 days to arrive.)

or another way to do is to get a 10W resistor that would draw more current so that flasher relay would flash normally, but then it'll lose the meaning using LED becuase you are using about the same power as the regular bulb.

WillyLin is correct. The flasher relay gets tripped to flash at a certain current draw. With LED lights your drawing a lot less current so the flasher relay (we called them blinker fuses back in the day, but its not really a fuse) does not get tripped and hence does not blink correctly.

A resistor might could work to shunt off current giving the circuit a higher load. The value of the resistor used would be guesswork on my part, but you would want it between the ground and the positive lead so that when the circuit gets juice, a portion of it gets grounded off before it hits the LED, increasing the current draw and tripping the flasher unit. This will negate the power consumption benefit of having LED's, but should work.

The better way, as WillyLin indicated would be to replace the blinker relay with one that trips on/off with a much lower current flow.

Interesting problem, never really thought about it before. But I'm sure thats the prob.

Sounds like its time to change the blinker fluid.

Can you guys get the new synthetic stuff over there??

PK

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Originally Posted by PK

Sounds like its time to change the blinker fluid.

Can you guys get the new synthetic stuff over there??

PK

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I was going to suggest checking the blinker fluid, but the USA models don't have blinker fluid dipsticks and are sealed systems not intended to be serviced. :mado: ;Dy;;Dy;

V-LEDs has all the answers in the world to this problem on their website. Sounds like you did not install the resistors correctly, this happened to me the first time I installed resistors because I was trusting the wire splicer things you clamp down and they were not making good contact. Make sure the resistor is not simply in line but actually goes from + over to - ON THE TURN SIGNAL + wire and NOT the brake light +, and make sure it is making a good connection with the touchy wire splicers you probably used.

Or a MUCH BETTER FIX FOR THIS.... You can simply take apart the stock flasher and grind down one metal wire and make it flash fine with less watts than normal. The thinner the piece of metal is the less watts needed to flash without the annoying quick flash. Once again all these intructions are on the V-LEDs website, or on their Facebook page or just search online.

Here is one such article to get you started:
http://vleds.wordpress.com/2010/12/0...k-with-v-leds/

I soldered the resistor in line with the ground on the turn signal, same as with the rear set up, when we put one of the regular bulbs in just to check it out the bulb hardly came on. Guess will look up on their site to see what else.

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Originally Posted by WillyLin

you will need to change the flasher relay to get the right flash on these LED bulbs, The flasher relay uses the bulbs' current to trigger each flashes, and the LED bulbs draw sooooo much less current compare to the regular bulb. LED are like 0.4 amp vs. 2 amp. you can go ebay and find a LED flasher for like $5 shipped from china ( downside is it'll take a week or 10 days to arrive.)

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Originally Posted by WillyLin

or another way to do is to get a 10W resistor that would draw more current so that flasher relay would flash normally, but then it'll lose the meaning using LED becuase you are using about the same power as the regular bulb.

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Originally Posted by Grif

WillyLin is correct. The flasher relay gets tripped to flash at a certain current draw. With LED lights your drawing a lot less current so the flasher relay (we called them blinker fuses back in the day, but its not really a fuse) does not get tripped and hence does not blink correctly.

A resistor might could work to shunt off current giving the circuit a higher load. The value of the resistor used would be guesswork on my part, but you would want it between the ground and the positive lead so that when the circuit gets juice, a portion of it gets grounded off before it hits the LED, increasing the current draw and tripping the flasher unit. This will negate the power consumption benefit of having LED's, but should work.

The better way, as WillyLin indicated would be to replace the blinker relay with one that trips on/off with a much lower current flow.

Interesting problem, never really thought about it before. But I'm sure thats the prob.

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Guys - This is what the resistors / load equalizers we installed are supposed to do, per V-LED's website. I even bought the bigger, badder 6 Ohm 50 Watt resistors:

6 OHM 50W 2 BULB LED LOAD EQUALIZER RESISTORS TURN SIGNAL BLINKER FIX

http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763/1644/...83296/size/250

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Originally Posted by LittleBeast

V-LEDs has all the answers in the world to this problem on their website. Sounds like you did not install the resistors correctly, this happened to me the first time I installed resistors because I was trusting the wire splicer things you clamp down and they were not making good contact. Make sure the resistor is not simply in line but actually goes from + over to - ON THE TURN SIGNAL + wire and NOT the brake light +, and make sure it is making a good connection with the touchy wire splicers you probably used.

Or a MUCH BETTER FIX FOR THIS.... You can simply take apart the stock flasher and grind down one metal wire and make it flash fine with less watts than normal. The thinner the piece of metal is the less watts needed to flash without the annoying quick flash. Once again all these intructions are on the V-LEDs website, or on their Facebook page or just search online.

Here is one such article to get you started:
http://vleds.wordpress.com/2010/12/0...k-with-v-leds/

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Thanks LittleBeast, Billy did actually cut and solder the connections so that should eliminate the clamp concern. The in-line vs. +/- suggestion sounds like something to explore, but remember the problem started in the FRONT blinkers, not the rear (which is what I assume you were referring to since you referenced the "the brake light +". Everything was good with the rear blinkers until we installed the front blinkers.

How do you get to all this documentation you keep referring to on their website? All I see is a FAQ's page which I already read thoroughly (didn't take long since the blinker fix is about 3 paragraphs).

http://www.v-leds.com/page/faq.html#2

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys!!!

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Originally Posted by PK

Sounds like its time to change the blinker fluid.

Can you guys get the new synthetic stuff over there??

PK

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grif

I was going to suggest checking the blinker fluid, but the USA models don't have blinker fluid dipsticks and are sealed systems not intended to be serviced. :mado: ;Dy;;Dy;

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Maybe a heavier weight would slow the current down more? :p

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Originally Posted by vt_maverick

How do you get to all this documentation you keep referring to on their website? All I see is a FAQ's page which I already read thoroughly (didn't take long since the blinker fix is about 3 paragraphs).

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http://vleds.wordpress.com/
I don't know only thing I did was sign up for their newsletter, so I get 10% off all orders for a week arfter receiving their newsletter. Maybe that was it.

physics musta changed.

I thought that the flasher was just a bi-metal spring that made & broke electrical connection. As current flowed through the spring, the 2 metals expanded at different rates causing the spring to bend away from the contact. After it cooled down from the no current mode, it would bend back towards the contact. The process would then be repeated.

If the LEDs are drawing less current, wouldn't that mean that you would get a slower flash rate?

This is 'old school' so maybe they've changed to an electronic timer instead???

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Originally Posted by vt_maverick

Everything was good with the rear blinkers until we installed the front blinkers.

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Which indicates there was still enough resistance provided by the front bulbs?

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Originally Posted by Ldub

Which indicates there was still enough resistance provided by the front bulbs?

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I think so. I almost wonder if I could have added a 3rd resistor to fix the problem? That seems like a band-aid though, would much rather understand the problem and the best fix.

Time to do some reading on V-LEDs...

In my experience you (and I) bought the wrong resistors. Here's the more complete experience:

1) Ohms is backwards. You need a 3 Ohm resistor to flash two bulbs, not the 6 Ohm one. The 6 Ohm one only replaces one bulb, so it works on the backs but not the fronts.

2) You CAN buy special LED flashers, but keep in mind the ones you can find are limited to '35W', and they burst into flames if you use a LED flasher AND a resistor.

3) Make sure you use the TURN signal to test your flashers, since the hazard lights will often flash at the correct rate, even when the turn signals won't.

4) Bulbs get hot and will melt your cladding if you leave them dangling around. The resistors also can get hot. I recommend the models from VLEDS etc that are encased in their own heat sink, at the very least.

Ash, I tried the resistor route. I had to change resistors twice when I changed the type/wattage of LED's. I highly recommend updating the flasher. I haven't had a problem yet. It was a bear to change out, as it is up under the left dash above your left foot. The large trunk of wires made removal of the original flasher difficult, and making replacement with new a bear.

I used the encased resistor from autozone, never had a problem...

I see your reading this too Billy... sounds like I may go ahead and order the 3 Ohm resistors along with the correct backup light LEDs. I'll be back in town Friday and Saturday so maybe we can make a second run at it?

Talked to the V-LEDs guy on the phone earlier, he said we needed one 3 ohm resistor per side, not one 6 ohm resistor at each bulb.

They should be here for us to try on Friday. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by mdwyer

In my experience you (and I) bought the wrong resistors. Here's the more complete experience:

4) Bulbs get hot and will melt your cladding if you leave them dangling around. The resistors also can get hot. I recommend the models from VLEDS etc that are encased in their own heat sink, at the very least.

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Thats another good point. Resistors resist current and shed excess energy off as heat. They are very inefficient and the excess heat should be dealt with in some way via heatsinks or just encasing the resistor. Granted, people dont typically run thier blinkers for long enough for the resistor to get overly hot but in the case of an extended hazard light session, it could pose a problem. Which is yet another reason for the more elegant if difficult solution, get the proper blinker fuse.

Dont have to order electronic flasher relays from ebay and wait. The are available at any parts store. Auto Zone has them for $10 that are LED compatible. Electronic ones use a timing circuit instead of amp draw so they dont care about the amperage as long as its not too high. You do lose the rapid flash thing that happens when a bulb burns out, but that happens with LED's and resistors on standard flashers as well.

Tridon/Turn Signal Flasher
Part Number: EP34
Alternate Part Number: FL34

Very nice info Dave... that looks to be the ticket.

If anyone would actually take the time to read the V-LEDs article there is an easy way to modify the stock flasher to work perfectly with the LEDs and yet still give you a quick flash warning if one of the LEDs ever actually goes out.

Or as others have mentioned replace the flasher. It is super easy to replace just turn the flashers on and follow the sound with your hand until you locate the flasher then without removing your hand turn flashers off with free hand and remove.

Oh and yeah 2 x 3ohm resistors on the rear will do the trick as well that is what I have installed. That is why I was a little confused when you said you put resistors on the front.

OK, so just the 2 X 3ohm in the back will work and not them at all corners. I read the write up on the relay trick, but the area to get the relay on and off on our car is a pain for this old guy and I am only going to do it one time, not have to get down there and try several times till I get it right.lol.

Looks like you got it squared away but ya I second the 3 ohm resistors. On my gfs car we put 3 ohm resistors in the rear to compensate for front and rear leds. In the vx I think I would put them on the front turn signals. My resistors in the rear of the vx melted the zip ties holding them in place and ended up melting a small piece of the housing.

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Originally Posted by yellowgizmo99

OK, so just the 2 X 3ohm in the back will work and not them at all corners. I read the write up on the relay trick, but the area to get the relay on and off on our car is a pain for this old guy and I am only going to do it one time, not have to get down there and try several times till I get it right.lol.

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I already did it several times... I made PLENTY of mistakes, but I seem to have found a steady-state, now. The one that finally worked for me was a 3 Ohm resistor (from VLEDs) screwed to the metal behind the tail lights. The resistor went across the bulb wires, NOT inline. On the drivers side, I had to mount the resistor behind the metal, or else the reflectors wouldn't fit back in place. The factory flasher then worked normally.

Total parts list:
2x 3ohm resistors (VLEDs LR_350) (back)
2x pirannah 1156 yellow towers (ddmtuning) (rear turn)
2x 1156 yellow (autolumination Matrix II? 321led) (front turn)

The DDM towers don't fit in the front turn signal sockets, which is why I went with the autolumination type instead. Otherwise, I do NOT recommend autolumination.

Other:
2x pirannah 1157 red towers (ddmtuning) (rear brake)
2x pirannah 1156 white towers (ddmtuning) (rear reverse)
4x 6k SMT 194 white (vleds 194_4_RB_W_6K) (horns and fogs)