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What was really the first performance utiility vehicle? Said differently, what is the VX's palce in automotive history. Was the Mercedes G-Wagon the first? I'm guessing the Porsche Cayenne thinks it's first but it would seem to owe alot to the VX, at least in terms of styling innovation. What does the group know about this subject? I hate to see the "obscure" history words used when describing the VX in Wikipedia. Don't you?
I wouldn't classify the G-wagen as a PUV only for the fact they were first designed with utility in mind. Just like Land Rover Defenders. They were used for military applications and utility needs, then became the fancy status symbols they are now. Maybe would consider the ML but they came out around the same time the VX was. Maybe an older AMC but they were more car like, the first crossover? I'd never heard of a PUV till the Vehicross so maybe that term was created for the VX?
I still gotta give that credit to the GMC Typhoon which has been brought up here a few times. I'm tempted to get one...
First general utility vehicle was the Jeep it stoop fpr GEneral Purpose vehicle GEP or Jeep. Built in a few days by the Bantam corporation in Butler PA for the army in WWII. It was built from spare parts but due to the small size of the Bantam Corporation the Army accepted their design and awarded the productioncontract to Ford. To assuage their guilt the Bantam Corp was given the trailer contract for the 2 wheel jeep like trailers.Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksambo
Ah, yes I forgot about those. And there are the special edition Ford Explorers (saleen?) And Durango's? Then there is the 5.9 limited Grand Cherokee in 98 only. After the Jdm VX was already being built though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZEUS
I wouldn't call the Ford GPW or the Willy's MB "Performance" utility vehicles which is what he was asking about. The first SUV would be attributed to either the first GM suburban or the Willys wagon though.Quote:
Originally Posted by circmand
This is an informative dialog. Let's find the best place for the VX to slot into and end it's automotive obscurity. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knivx
First Performance utility vehicle. By the standards of the time the Jeep was the 1st utility vehicle designed for multiple uses in various terrains. It is in fact the vehicle for ehich the sport utility vehicle was descended from. Remember the Jeep was a troop transport, ambulance, artillary transport and spotting. If it is not a utility vehicle nothing is.
IMHO
Yes the MB/GPW was a utility vehicle. But not a "sport" utility. At least in my mind. It all descended from those jeeps true but then they all became their own thing. As far as the puv niche the vx was definitely one of the first. It's all semantics.Quote:
Originally Posted by circmand
The AMC Eagle, which was an AWD crossover that debuted 30 years ago, was ahead of its time and kinda funky looking - especially the version based on the Gremlin. Look at a Nissan Murano, Infinity FX or even the VX and tell me you don't see a little bit of Gremlin in them. ;eekb; I'm sure by today's standards its performance would be rather underwhelming but back in the days of Chevettes, B-210s, Pintos and 17 second Corvettes, the motive force from its 4.2 liters wasn't too shabby - and despite the generous ground clearance, it handled more like a car than an SUV.
So that's it then - the Eagle has my vote for the first PUV and spiritual predecessor to the VX.
I never considered the Eagle a "performance" anything. The SX4 was the nastiest of the litter and was/is considered the performance variant of the the Eagle but it was still just a car and not a utility vehicle. Vote DENIED! :P
But the question was not Sport Utility it was performance Utility so I stickl by my answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knivx
Easy...Pfffffttt! LM001.....1981....Lambo:bgwo::bgwo::bgwo:
Lamborghini LM002....?
jo
What?! No love for a jacked up AWD station wagon with a big straight six?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZEUS
Ah well... Performance is relative I guess. I rode in one back in 1980 and it felt like a rocket...
...compared to my MG Midget!
Actually after reading your post I looked for some Eagles on eBay. There's love! I did see two Lambo LM's on eBay yesterday too - $90,000+ I think.
Ha! I remember the Lamborghini LM002. I'd forgotten about the term "Rambo Lambo" - hadn't heard that in years (decades?) and it made me LOL when I saw it on Wiki.
This is a very lively discussion! Let's keep it going until we find a spot for the VX, and fix the Wikipedia citation, once and for all. Thank you one and all for your very insightful input.
Sambo I already found a spot for the VX - my driveway! I'll have to check out the Wikipedia entry - I don't know what you're talking about...
Zeus forget that $300 woody wagon on eBay - here's the type of Eagle you'd be more interested in:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da.../exo_eagle.jpg
I kinda like these though:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da.../eagle_sx4.jpg
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...le_wagon_3.jpg
Some people stuff V8s in them..
The LM00 is my vote. If I could ever get my hands on one of them!
The guy who built the green exo-caged one is named Curt, he owns Evolution 4x4 in Casper Wyoming. It IS cool! It has the drivetrain of an early Bronco. He has built up a few Eagles - we used to lovingly call him "Joe Dirt" but last year he shaved off the mullet. His latest project is a rat rod style crawler. I like Eagles, I just can't consider them a performance SUV... not even a performance car. Still, I would kinda like to have one of those SX4's. :yeso:Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowPro48
Oh and here are some more pics of it if you are interested (see a VX in the distant future... I mean background? That reminds me, he said he always liked the VX.:
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/Eagle3.jpeg
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/Eagle2.jpeg
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/500/Eagle1.jpeg
Jeep is an automobile marque (and registered trademark) of Chrysler. It is the oldest off-road vehicle (also sport utility vehicle – SUV) brand. It inspired a number of other military Light Utility Vehicles such as the Land Rover which is the second oldest brand. The original vehicle which first appeared as the prototype Bantam BRC became the primary light 4-wheel-drive vehicle of the US Army and allies during the World War II and postwar period. Many vehicles serving similar military and civilian roles have since been created by many nations.
Jeeps were used by every division of the U.S. military and an average of 145 were supplied to every infantry regiment. Jeeps were used for many other purposes including cable laying, saw milling, as fire fighting pumpers, field ambulances, tractors and, with suitable wheels, would even run on railway tracks. An amphibious jeep, the model GPA, or "seep" (Sea Jeep) was built for Ford in modest numbers but it could not be considered a huge success
Okay the rest of you making niminations let see some proof of your nominations worthiness and maybe we should do a poll
Perhaps we ned to look at the styling of the VX to place it ahead of the other 4 wheel drive examples. Maybe it's the aggressive nature of the styling that sets it apart? That Lambo doesn't seem to have really aggressive styling like the VX, it looks more like a big DeLorean or Hum Vee to me??? At any rate, aggressive styling became very popular after the VX, just look at the BMW M6 coupe for example. Who started all that stuff? Was it the VX, it's a coupe, also?
has its unique styling that prefaces what is the cool thing for the new generation. From tail fins on caddies that inspired it on all vehicles, to going from round edges in the 60s to sharp edges in the 70s. From station wagons to mini vans (yes thats right mini vans were hot and extremely popular and copied when they first came out.) Lee Iacoca tried to get Ford to make them instead of the station wagon but was refused so he went to Chrysler and saved te company. Convertables used to rule the day then in the 70s and 80s you could barely find one but now they are back. The VX actually look a lot like the ground shuttles in 1999 a space odyssey (a 70s TV Show)
This is helpful. Is the VX the start of aggressive styling that even the new Honda Crosstour sports?Quote:
Originally Posted by circmand
I think the VX represented the birth of the modern crossover, no more, no less. There are two theories on crossover design: (1) put a sports car body/engine on truck underpinnings, or (2) put a truck-like body on car underpinnings. Isuzu chose the first model with the VX, but most other manufacturers have gone the second route with much more success. Turns out people generally want the tougher, more capable look of a truck while retaining the soft ride of a car.
That said, I think you do have to acknowledge the AMC Eagle SX4 as a close relative to the VX. Maybe the two represent the general dichotomy amongst crossovers. Crossovers that look more like trucks/SUVs (VX, Toyota Highlander, etc.), and ones that look more like cars (Eagle SX4, Crosstour, it's Acura equivalent).
I can agree with this observation. I think you are on to something. But is it the full story? Let's think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by vt_maverick
Zeus that is quite a ride - looks straight outta Road Warrior. I can just picture a hoon with a mullet driving it too!
Before there was the Crosstour, there was the BMW X6.Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksambo
And before the X6 there was...
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da..._AMC_Eagle.jpg
Good stuff! The VX is definitely the predecessor to the X6, but the Eagle didn't handle like a Miata or have 4 Low. Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowPro48
I think a key criteria factor to whatever PUV/SUV/CrossOver is being considered, it must have a seperate switchable lever/switch to engage 4WD "LOW RANGE". Otherwise, it ain't squat and should be excluded from our discussion.:bgwb:
hmm.. very interesting discussion for sure....
circmand- generally i would agree with you on jeep being the first....UTILITY vehicle... but there is nothing performance or sporty about the first jeeps.
im gonna have to go with the eagle as well... first of its kind to have ground clearance, AWD and a little power...(ya maybe lacking in power a little, but its definately more powerful than an old jeep)
Yes but it can't handle like a Miata and has no 4LOw. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, lacks the now popular aggressive styling. Right?
Dude, you set a high standard - does any crossover handle like a Miata? Seems like decent ground clearance and low center of gravity would be mutually exclusive.
And about the 4-Low requirement.... I guess that's always been a characteristic of true off-road capability - but if you've got enough torque, in a crossover, who needs Low? Not that an Eagle had torque - but the X6 does - a friend took me for a ride in his hybrid model and I think he said it cranked out 575 ft-lbs. With that much twist on tap - you don't need no stinkin' Low Range! You can already pull a school bus straight up a wall with your street gears. Plus if you double/triple/quadruple the torque with a transfer case, you have to beef up all manner of stuff to cope with the potential additional stress so you end up adding a bunch of weight for a feature you'll hardly ever use. Most of these crossovers need more ground clearance to go off-road, not lower gearing...
SlowPro48--- I disagree. In an off-road environment, 4WD "Low Range" is absolutely mandatory because the need to slowly crawl over obstacles and/or manuever slowly around obstacles with varying degrees of road surface (sand, mud, snow, slick-rock, tree-rooted, jeep-trail tire-rutted, etc). Trying to haul@ss in high gear in an off-road environment is merely gonna' get your vehicle either stuck (buried up to the axles due to its high HP torque) and/or totaled into a boulder or tree.
Additional ground clearance can easily be increased with taller O.D. tires, provided they fit within the confines of the fenderwells. When it comes to selectable 4WD "Low Range"-- either it came on the vehicle from the factory or it didn't. It can't simply be added later on a whim. Heck, even the tiny Suzuki X-90 (1996--1998) came with a 3-way transfer case in 2W-Hi, 4W-Hi, 4W-Lo.:bgwb:
The Miata thing is not my idea but rather Car&Driver I believe. After all Tone Monday claims to have dusted off 50 out of 70 Porsches in an Auto Cross competition and the ones he lost to had racing rubber etc. while he had SUV tires. So yes, it handled for its day. Open Road by Road and Track magazine called it the best handling SUV ever. Infact, they still comptete and won the Aussie Condo 750 Rally last month. Please respond.
while i have to agree that the X6 is a sweet ride for a street driven vehicle. i have to argue that there isnt much utility vehicle about it.... it would be hillarious to see something like that try to do anything of real offroad capability.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowPro48
and sorry slowpro- riff is right on this one. if you took that thing out to a place like moab. it would either roll over, crash into something or get bogged down. you cant exactly just floor it....in any offroad situation, unless your looking to wreck or break your vehicle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riff Raff
what do you think would happen in this situation with an X6? mmm... not a good idea.
http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...7/00000153.JPG
@Riff Raff:
Maybe you misunderstood my post. What I was saying is 4-Low is for true off-road but in a crossover you don't really need it. This was in response to your assertion that a crossover must have Low Range otherwise it "ain't squat".
There are plenty of fine crossovers out there that don't have 4L. The smart people who design them know most buyers aren't interested in bashing rocks on the Rubicon. They just want to do light-duty stuff like get to their favourite trout stream at the end of a rutted forest service road - so why add 500+ lbs of transfer case and beefed up drivetrain if you don't need it? My boss's new Acura MDX has enough power and traction to go anywhere my VX will go - it not only apportions torque front and back like the VX but also side to side. What it lacks is ground clearance - but what it gives up in ground clearance, it gains in handling. I guarantee you - he uses the MDX's good handling a lot more often than I use my VX's 4L!
Not sure what to say about the haul@ss in high gear/crash into a tree thing. I tend to think of momentum as a friend who keeps me OUT of trouble more often than getting me INTO trouble. Throttle control man! Just because that loud pedal goes all the way to the floor doesn't mean you have to put it there when you're in a tight spot!
@blacksambo
Well, I've driven a Miata and I've driven a VX and I can tell you, my VX is no Miata. It handles quite well considering its height and mass - but it's no low to the ground, 2500 lb sports car that's for sure. As far as Tone's success at autocross I think there may be a few other factors at work besides handling. AWD traction comes to mind. The autocrosses I've been to had really tight turns connected by short straights so RWD cars were at a disadvantage. Oversteer looks good to the spectators but wastes time. Corner speed was important (as with just about any type of racing) but the ability to put the power to the pavement and get to the next corner as quickly as possible was what separated the winners from the also-rans. (there's that throttle control again) This is where the VX would have an advantage over a Porshe or Miata. Also - did you consider that maybe Tone was a very good driver? He probably could have beaten some of those Porsches if he were driving a clapped out Country Squire. Not to insult any autocrossers here but that sport seems to have a lot of appeal to the weekend warrior type who doesn't have the skills to keep from wadding his expensive sports car up at the track so he runs over cones instead. Some really get into it and have serious skills but alot of the ones I saw lacked knowledge and precision - they were playing - basically just there to have fun and show off their car - and Tone would trounce someone like that no matter what he was driving.
Good points all. But C&D did say Miata and Open Road did say best handling SUV. So, keep the commentary coming. The VX is something special, and we need to define in order to get that "obscure" point off Wikipedia. Thanks