timing belt jumped

well,
misery loves company, and what better company to have than you guys!!!
yeah, it jumped, im bummed, and extended warranty is wanting to pay about 30% of the bill......did i mention that i was bumming???
i have searched, are there issues with the tensioner?? wondering if i should go with genuine parts, or good aftermarket? this one went out with 64000 on odometer, which seems kinda soon.

warranty company said, NO, you dont need to check the valves, and wont pay for checking. said NO, you dont need to replace the water pump, and NO, the tensioner is fine, put the belt on, and send me down the road. im thinking river without a paddle........
i havent called them yet, but i know im gonna be asking for a supervisor and telling him "thats not good enough"

i dont think the valves will be an issue. im fairly sure we are NON INTERFERANCE,
and i wasnt going that fast when it jumped. but i feel at very least i need a tensioner.

all that said, any points, or ammo you guys can suggest when dealing with this hoser at the warranty company wouldbe appreciated. i have to call them monday.

Wish me luck.......im gonna need it

Fortunately, the timing belt is really pretty easy to do on a VX. I'm doing mine in the next 2-3 weeks and anticipate it will take between 4-6 hours with no help.

I'll probably throw a water pump in too, but it's not really a big deal to change that by itself. If you order one and give it to the mechanics doing the belt, they might throw it on for a very small increase in price. Definitely order that straight from Merlin -- rebuilt water pumps are nothing but trouble IMHO.

On a side note, if anybody wants to witness a timing belt replacement (and lend a helping hand), PM or email me so I can plan for you to be here when I do it. I'm in Grand Rapids, MI 49505.

Does the timing belt have to be or recommended to be replaced on the VX after so many miles?
I have had other vehicles where the timing belt was replaced every 60,000 miles.

According to workshop manual timing belt should be replaced every 100,000 miles under normal load or 75,000 under heavy load. Normally, you need to replace tensioner and pulleys with it. Good mechanics also recommend to change water pump at the same time. I replaced mine at 60.000 because I was not sure about the full history of my VX.

Going by the miles listed in the manual, the timing belt shouldn't have been an issue yet, so it must have jumped for a reason, and should be covered despite what the warranty rep says. The fact that it jumped at all would make me suspect a faulty component somewhere, so I'd most likely opt for replacing all associated parts; tensioner, pulleys, and belt. I'm sure there are differing opinions about going with factory or aftermarket parts. Even though it was a factory part that broke prematurely this time, I'd probably still try to err on the safe side and go with factory stuff.

Since it's going to be torn down that far anyway, replacing the water pump at this time would be the more cost effective way to go in the long run, otherwise you'd just have another similar bill for labor when you did decide to have it replaced. I agree that if you went ahead and bought a new one, the mechanics would probably change it for you (while they're in there) for a small additional fee. And given all that, going with a factory pump as opposed to a no-name "equivalent" should also result in more piece of mind that it was done right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tobert

Fortunately, the timing belt is really pretty easy to do on a VX. I'm doing mine in the next 2-3 weeks and anticipate it will take between 4-6 hours with no help.

I'll probably throw a water pump in too, but it's not really a big deal to change that by itself. If you order one and give it to the mechanics doing the belt, they might throw it on for a very small increase in price. Definitely order that straight from Merlin -- rebuilt water pumps are nothing but trouble IMHO.

On a side note, if anybody wants to witness a timing belt replacement (and lend a helping hand), PM or email me so I can plan for you to be here when I do it. I'm in Grand Rapids, MI 49505.

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For those of us who can't make the trip, how 'bout lots of pics and a how to!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :yesy: :bwgy: :winky:

Had mine changed at my last oil change, took 15 minutes, cost $65, parts and labor.

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Originally Posted by Raque Thomas

Had mine changed at my last oil change, took 15 minutes, cost $65, parts and labor.

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That was probably the serpentine belt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Triathlete

For those of us who can't make the trip, how 'bout lots of pics and a how to!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :yesy: :bwgy: :winky:

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See my for sale thread :( The job is awesome enough to give up the VX, though. http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?p=96834

I probably won't be doing the timing belt after all unless the buyer wants to pay for it.

I would get a leak down test done. If there is a problem with a valve it will show up. If there is no problem with the leak down test I would install the belt and do a compression test. If the tests do not show any problems then you are ok. Or you could check the valve clearance and if there is a big difference on any of them you will know you have a problem. shawn

well, heres the latest.
i didnt get ahold of Guardian Warranty Corp today, but i got ahold of Merlin at st charles
Timing Belt 55.73 w/o discount 148.61
water pump 148.61 w/o discount 174
belt tensionor rod 73.69 w/o discount 86.69

warranty company isnt wanting to replace water pump, im thinking it will go out with the new belt, and more tension, so that will be a failure and another deductible. i think 148 bucks is pretty good price, although water pump is covered in warranty. it just hasnt failed so they dont want to replace it.
the factory timing belt worries me, since it failed early, but yeah, i agree trekker, i will probably go with factory part.

NOW, anyone know about this tesionor rod??? is this the part that would fail, or wear out??? the tensionor is not covered in the warranty. Merlin seemed to think i would be in pretty good shape if i just replaced this rod. Does that make sense to you guys? i really dont know.

Tone, so you are saying its interferance!?! I thought i read in other post that it was NON interferance. THAT would change everything.
warranty corp DOES NOT cover diagnostices but valves, guides, "all internally lubricated parts" ARE covered.
hmmm, i gotta think about this some more on this "interferance" issue.......

thanks
david

DUH.........
so in summary of last post
What are the feelings on just replacing the "tensionor rod"????
If i didnt use oem belt, is there another suggestion??? (gatorback, etc 0
do you all think the odds are pretty good that the pump will fail with the new belt??
More info on the interferance/non interferance issue, PLEASE, thank you !!!! (mechanic did say the other day, that they had read in a bullitin, or something saying " the engine may, or may not be an interferance engine."

While it's hard to tell looking at the cd manual, the tensioner rod appears to be the same type of hydraulic tensioner that's used on my other vehicle. In my opinion, this would be the most likely of the related timing belt components that could fail and cause the results you've experienced. Regardless of whether it failed or not though, if you're having the timing belt service done at this time, $75 for a new tensioner would be relatively cheap piece of mind for such an important component.

Do all of the other pulleys the timing belt rides on seem intact? These would include the pulleys on the crankshaft, the camshafts, the water pump, the idler pulley, and the tensioner pulley. I doubt there would be a problem with the camshaft pulleys, but they should have no lateral or radial play. Same for the camshaft pulley. Regardless of how the water pump/pulley feels, I'd still say replace it anyway.

As far as the idler and tensioner pulleys go, if they turn easy, and no lateral or radial play can be felt, you could probably leave them as is, and is probably what Merlin meant when he said he thought you would be in good shape just replacing the rod/tensioner. (For what it's worth, when I did the timing belt job on my other vehicle, I replaced the water pump, the idler pulley, and the tensioner pulley as a just-in-case precaution, especially since I had it all apart anyway. That's just me though).

If the $55 is for a factory belt, I doubt you'll find a better price. And for an item like that, I'd personally stick with a well-known brand like Goodyear or Gates too.

Quote:

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IndianaVX --- More info on the interferance/non interferance issue, PLEASE, thank you !!!! (mechanic did say the other day, that they had read in a bullitin, or something saying " the engine may, or may not be an interferance engine."

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Don't know about that at the moment, but...damn, you'd think that a factory(?) bulletin would be a bit more specific regarding such an important issue. :_huh:

Indiana - I have a suggestion for you based on what happened with my wife's old Passat...

See if you can get your mechanic to make the case to the warranty company that something other than the t-belt failed, and they may cover the work. The Passat's tensioner pulley assembly came apart and messed up the works. If the belt had broken, it was our responsibility, but since something else caused the belt to fail, it was all covered by her extended warranty - I only paid for them to put a new serpentine belt on when they put it back together... a $38 t-belt replacement!

Good luck!

I was wrong when I posted yesterday the 6VE1 was an Interference engine. I've checked with about a dozen engine publications online and they all agree concur it is a NON INTERFERENCE engine (most older Isuzu's were interference), except this site: http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doity...ming_belt3.htm

There have been several owners here who have had the belt fail and NOT had catastrophic engine failure. I was in no hurry to change mine for that very reason that if it failed, at least the valves and pistons wouldn't meet - BUT, a broken belt could sure do some damage.

How was it that you noticed the timing belt jumped? Was the engine running funny? I'm assumming, that if it jumped that it through the timing out of sync?

Also I'm glad that they are covering it for you. When I had my Jeep Wrangler the company that I had wouldn't repair anything. Everything fell into the loop hole called "Wear Items" which was not covered.

IndianaVX - I concur with Merlin, I think it was more than likely a worn tensioner that allowed the belt to skip in the first place, so you should most definitely replace it. However, if you're going to take everything apart, you might as well replace the belt (and possibly the water pump also). I personally did NOT replace my water pump because I couldn't really spare the extra $150 at the time, but normally I prefer to err on the side of caution. Either way, replace the belt and tensioner and you're good to go for another 75-100k miles. Replace only the tensioner and you'll just have to tear it down again in 36k miles.

A word of warning - Mark is 100% correct about NOT rotating the cam shafts once the belt has been removed. Much of the published information is incorrect, and if you follow the CD manual letter for letter, you'll screw up your timing and the cam shafts will need to be reindexed. I know because I made that mistake myself and wound up having to have a shop complete the job for me. :madb: There is a TSB that explains the issues, and the correct way to reindex your cam shafts. The shop that does the work should have access to this TSB, but I also have a copy somewhere. If you need it I'll dig it up for you (please PM me). In all likelihood they will need to do this reindexing, since your belt skipped and the timing is probably off now.

FWIW, I also concur with Tone - I am under the understanding that this motor is, in fact, NON-INTERFERENCE.

kpaske,

If you do find the TSB on cam timing, how about forwarding it to Moncha to add to the download section.

That right there could be some handy information to have. ;)

Weird. I totally had my cams & stuff all out of whack and I don't remember having any particular trouble getting it all lined up. It was mostly a pain in the butt because the cams wanted to snap out of place due to valve spring pressure.

I followed the CD manual's procedure. Maybe I got lucky?

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Originally Posted by JAFO

How was it that you noticed the timing belt jumped? Was the engine running funny? I'm assumming, that if it jumped that it through the timing out of sync?

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The ignition timing would not be off. But the cam timing would be. shawn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tobert

Weird. I totally had my cams & stuff all out of whack and I don't remember having any particular trouble getting it all lined up. It was mostly a pain in the butt because the cams wanted to snap out of place due to valve spring pressure.

I followed the CD manual's procedure. Maybe I got lucky?

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You must have. :confused: I did the job TWICE myself, using the CD manual, to the letter, and my timing was all screwed up. I took it to a nearby shop, and it took them THREE tries before finding that TSB and correcting the problem.

I'll try to find that TSB and get it posted here. It's a little oily, but it should scan OK to be readable. ;Db;

I've been trying to remember what I did to get it right. I am not a professional mechanic, so don't be afraid to correct me ...

* check #1 TDC on the crank by probing the #1 cylinder with a long screwdriver (don't rotate the engine with the screwdriver in the spark plug hole as you risk gouging or worse, breaking pieces off in your cylinder chamber -- it's probably safe if rotating with a wrench, but don't blame me if something goes wrong)
* work with the valve covers off so you can see which valves are open
* use only a wrench to rotate the engine to protect your parts and yourself
* take your time and wrap your brain around the process of how the cams and crank are synchronized, then it'll become clear how it should be

With that information, it's pretty easy to figure out if you're on the right revolutions from there. For example, you know when you're on #1 compression stroke when both valves are closed and you're at TDC. Then you can forward through the firing order and figure out where everything else should be when the cams and crank are set at the default marks.

Once you put the belt on, rotate it around a bunch of times by hand and follow the firing process in your head. If the firing order is 123456 (I don't think that's right for the VX), you should see compression stroke on #1 with both valves closed, then the same on #2 and so on ... simultaneously, the next upstroke on #1 should be exhaust ... you get it.

Save yourself some time and go buy a few of those metal office clips suggested in the service manual. They really help a TON. It would probably also be a lot easier with two people, but I did it myself.

When I put a new timing belt on my wife's Subaru, I actually started it up while the timing cover was still off to make sure I got it right. Don't run it more than a second or two as the engine will burn up without coolant around the cylinders and in the heads. The temperature gauge is useless without coolant, so don't rely on it ;)

Okay,
heres the update.
My mechanic put a new timing belt on today. said the vx ran like new!!!!! it ran so well, that he didnt even feel that its necissary to do a compression check.
so i called merlin, ordered a water pump, and a belt tensioner rod. im going ahead and paying for these parts for peace of mind. so i should have my truck by middle of next week!!! I CANT WAIT!
this brings up a couple of things to my mind though. did i just get lucky that the valves didnt kiss the pistons in this interferance engine? or is this a sign that it is a non interferance? who knows, and at this point, i dont really care, im getting my truck back!!!

cant wait to shine er up, and smile again.

david

The engine is a non-interference engine, you'll be fine.

excellent news.

-biju.

Hey people....
anybody got a copy of the TSB that kpaske was talking about?? looks like im needing it. got things together, new pump, and tensioner rod, put back together, and it runs like crap. im taking a copy of the post on page 2 for the tech training. hopefully that will help, but the tsb would be great. or if someone has the number, i can tell my mechanic to look it up, wherever they look that stuff up......
as always, all your help is appreciated!!
Thanks

david

ok, i cant copy and paste the post that deermagnet made on page 2. anyone got a copy, or tell me how to copy this so i can print it out for my mechanic in the morning??
thanks again
david

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IndianaVX

ok, i cant copy and paste the post that deermagnet made on page 2. anyone got a copy, or tell me how to copy this so i can print it out for my mechanic in the morning??
thanks again
david

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David,

Its a number of picture files so all you need to do is a right-click on each page and save it to your computer. Open up each photo with a picture/photo software and print them off.

anita, mark,
thanks, as always you all are so helpful........
thanks again.
david

:(

ok, i am at a loss of words.
Ive got a good mechanic working on the vx, he really is. has worked on my stuff for over 10 years.
BUT, hes having a heck of a time with the timing issue. I have given him the post from here. he has the same service bullitins. lines everything up proper, and then it wont start, or runs poorly.
He is complaining that what isuzu has printed is wrong(which ive read here too) and thinks that the problem is in the translation. he mentioned that he has the same problem with hondas, and other foreign makes.
hes done compression check, leak down, passed well within specs.

IM REALLY NEEDING SOME HELP.

it seems everyone has had this same problem. i have searched the threads, given him everything i have printed out on others attempts. (man, im getting a headache)

is there anything you all can think of that i can relay back to him that he might be missing? is it that easy to be out 180 degrees? he has oem belt.
if the cams WERE turned individually, and things got out of whack, man, im typing out loud, and cant even finish a thought.

am i correct in saying that the procedure on tones cd is wrong also? (no fault of tones)

I was joking about taking the shilloette to badlands, but im thinking i better call oldsmobile, and get that 3" lift and some terra grapplers for it.
Im sorry guys to have to ask, but can you scratch you heads a little more for me, and come up with some suggestions?
its gotta be just one of those small things that are head bangers, then, BAM the light comes on.
sorry to ramble so long

i gotta get an asprin or two..........

thank you all, really, thank you!!

david

David,

So sorry I didn't get to this sooner. I've just started a new job, so I've been really busy and haven't been online in over a week. I went through the same B.S. when I tried to replace my own timing belt a while back so I know what you're going through.

The bottom line is, the Isuzu manuals are wrong. The TSB# IB00-S005 explains the correct procedure and I've uploaded the scanned images into my gallery. I hope this helps. Please send me an e-mail (not a PM!) if you have any other questions that I can help you with.

Kyle

well, i STILL dont have my vx back....this is getting old.
my question for today, or tonight, is this.
if the timing is set wrong, or the cams are not turned till they "snap" into place, and then the belt is installed, and then the engine is fired up in this condition.....is there any chance of valves kissing or getting bent???
i dont know if something has happened while the mechanic has tested, and they dont want to tell me, which, i wouldnt think they would do that.....ive been dealing with this guy for years, but i did find out that its the "new guy" thats working on my rig. i told the secretary that i wasnt real happy about that. i brought it to them for terry to work on....terry is who has done all my work in the past, and he has done it well. she assured me that this new guy is qualified, and terry is activly involved, which is good.
BUT how screwed up can things be after two weeks of trying to set the timing on a 6VE1 engine, and me giving them service bullitins, and even a very detailed instruction given to me by a VERY QUALIFIED ISUZU SPECIALIST.... this is what is making me loose sleep....seriously. i have spent 300 bucks on gas in two weeks driving my g20
van. which was supposed to go towards my repair bill (whatever warranty doesnt cover) which brings me to another sleep looser......warranty isnt going to cover the time they have taken.....im sure warranty co has a set number of hours they figure for timing belt replacement, and this guy is working on and off for 3 weeks putting a timing belt on......thats gonna come out of MY pocket....which i am hoping they treat me well, and not charge me for all those hours......(here comes the headache again)
im starting to think im not gonna have the vx for the badlands meet :(
theres gotta be a joke in all this somewhere....How many mechanics does it take to change a timing belt???
sorry to whine and moan...
any response to my questions???

trying to stay positive

david

OH, i almost forgot,
thank you kyle for the tsb. it WASNT the same one they had, so.........who knows..
also congrads on the new job. I hope its something you were looking for and will bring you happiness and riches, and its something you enjoy doing.
thanks for your help..

and another thank you to Ldub. thanks for the "email"
david

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Originally Posted by IndianaVX

and another thank you to Ldub. thanks for the "email"
david

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No problem, I just hope your mechanic gets this resolved & you're able to hit the trails with the gang this weekend...I was kidding when I said that Silouettes RULE off-road. :p ;) :p

***UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE ***
good news....kinda, but more bad.
good news is this, my mechanic found out the problem, which is the pin that holds the cam gear to the cam shaft broke, which allowed the cam to spin 180 degrees from where it should be. which explains why when everything was lined up on the marks, it still wouldnt run right, because the driverside cam was 180 degrees from where it should be.
another issue was the the bearing surface between the back driverside lobes was rough and scarred due to oiling problem. i havent looked yet, but i think this is a problem that others have had with the engine failure....or maybe it was the back driverside piston.
more good news is that cam, and other related failures are covered on my warranty, (from reading the brochure, havent talked to a rep yet) so thats good too.
bad news is, its already been two months already, and it looks like its going to be atleast a few more weeks before i will get it back.
my mechanic said he is looking at very least, getting a new head, and maybe a new engine. he said also that some warranty companys will replace the engine with used engines, instead of new ones. i told him to push for as much new stuff as he could, obviously.
soooooo, im sure i will be talking to merlin here pretty soon..
wish me luck, and thanks again for all the help.
if nothing else, i got an excellent write up on how to install a timing belt from a very qualified isuzu person, which i will post up soon.

thanks again peeps,

david

also, a little "testemony"
im a praying kinda guy anyway, but its not often that i talk to God about the mechanics of an isuzu 6VE1 DOHc engine........but i did last night, asking him to help my mechanic find out what the problem was.
the shop opens at 800am. i had a phone call at 810am thismorning with terry, (my mechanic) saying " dave, i found out what the problem is, can you stop by, and ill show you what is going on..."

it seems that so often in our lives, when things are going rotten, we try, and we try to resolve them ourselves, and use prayer as a last resort, almost saying "well, ive tried everything else" instead of praying as soon as a problem starts up.

if you are going thru something in your life, let God know about it, yeah, hes got his own sense of time, and the answer my not be immediate, but that doesnt mean he's not listening and ready to help!

God is good, REAL good,

david

t

Well, heres the latest,
if ever given the choice, i WOULD NOT get a extended warranty from gaurdian warranty company.
the warranty company called me today, and said he found a shop that could REBUILD my cylinder head in one day, and send it back out the next day. i am totally disgusted. i had offered to go half way on a new head (899 complete head) and he was going to go for that, then i discover that he and my mechanic talked friday on this rebuilding thing, leaving me totally in the dark for the weekend. so it looks like the head will be rebuilt, if not done correctly, i will probably be broke down again in a couple of months. im trying to be optomistic, but a couple of weeks ago, my mechanic was saying how he wouldnt want to rebuild it from the way the "bearing" sirface was too worn, and to build this up, and then cut it back in would be a lost cause.
who knows.......bout fed up.
i guess ill have my vx back pretty soon though, so thats good.

david

david, sorry to hear about all this happening to you and your VX :( i dunno what id do without my vx for two months, two days away from it and i was goin crazy! hope everything works out well though... heres to many years of minimal maintenance driving! :_beer:

thanks etl, id go for those beers right bout now......lol

well,
yesterday, my cylinder head came in......after 7 days, not 1 day turnaround, and one day back. so im fired up, but tryin not to get too excited, you know......
so today, i figure they are putting things back together, and i was wondering about a motor flush, or at very least, change the oil, filter etc. so i stop by and ask them about this, and how things were going...........


the indexing pin was fixed, and only one cam needed work, so what do these guys so highly recommended by my warranty guy do??? take both cams out, then when reassybling, two of the gears were in backwards, and in the wrong place, and a bolt that holds the cop on, was sticking halfway out, and another bolt wrapped in paper, rolling round loose in the box the head was in........

I dont make this stuff up...............

so my mechanic is fixing what should have been fixed, when it was sent to be fixed.....he told the warranty company that they just singed an open ticket to get this going again which means to me, for the amount that this head repair is gonna cost anybody but me, we could have had a NEW COMPLETE CYLINDER HEAD FOR LESS THAN 900 BUCKS............go figure

i didnt even have the energy to ask when they thought they would have it done.....

Hopefully, in the next 30 days i will be back in the vx saddle again!!! lol

take it easy people
thanks

david

breakdown date 3-30-2007 76 days ago

Hang in there! Hope all comes together as it should, and she runs like new!

-biju.