Taxes!

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Originally Posted by Ldub

xx

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No, the constitution protects you from the government searching you and so on against your will. My dad's factory is not a government agency, and you provide your urine of your own free will. He can't make you. You have a choice!!!!! He just won't hire you. No law against that. As an employee, think of yourself as a tool for the company so to speak. You want the best tools possible. You wouldn't do precision machining with a Harbor Freight lathe? You get the idea.
His company also makes his guys and girls cut their hair, or else it has to be compressed under a helmet. If it doesn't fit, then you get it removed. Lots of heavy machinery and rotating machinery, its not a safe place for loose clothing/hair.
Guess what, I have to wear a uniform to work, shave, have my haircut a specific way and so on. I can't bring my phone to work, and I get random searched all the time, for no reason, just cause, just in case I might have a phone. Where is the ACLU!!! My rights are being violated!!!
No, an employer should be able to do an initial drug test, he is investing time in money on you. He should be able to tests if there is an accident, or reasonable cause. If you don't like it, work somewhere else. Thats the glory, you have a choice!!!
I would test drive a car, check the oil, and so on If I was buying a home, I would have it inspected, check the attic and so on. An employee is potentially a 50 year investment.

Here is another good one, if I get in trouble out in town, say a DUI, I do my civil court stuff and so on. Then I come back to work and do it again, where I get reduced in rank,(lowered pay, no chance for promotion...and possibly even fired. You would expect that since your tax dollars are going to fund this operation, you should have safe operators. Essentially I work for you. Wouldn't trust a drunk/drug guy with a million dollar machine would you? Would you want to put your life in the hands of a heroin addict? Working in a factory with 200 ton presses, metal saws, robotic welders and so on is no different. Its a dangerous job if you aren't paying attention.

I am a volunteer in the military, I knew the rules when I signed up. I had a choice to not work here.

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Originally Posted by Marlin

Its a dangerous job if you aren't paying attention.

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X2

Just this past Monday I got to work all blurry from too much partying over the weekend - wasn't paying attention to what I was doing - got a paper cut - hurt like hell. I wonder if I should file workman's comp???

JK, I'm a G-Civ. I didn't come to work on Monday ... & nobody even noticed.

Interesting turn of events yesterday though. They MADE me fill out an application to telecommute. No problem there (I commute 45 miles each way) I'll telecommute however I can, whenever I can.

Here's the rub: If post ever closes for weather or if the Government ever shuts down for $$$, I HAVE to put in my 9 from home (potentially for free).

Wow, that fizzled out pretty quick. How boring. Come on, there has to be something else, some kind of counter somewhere in there. :(
I was having fun!!! Just like Osteo said, better to argue over what we disagree on than to talk about how much we agree on something else.
I even threw in a jab on the billions we spend on Indians.

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Originally Posted by Marlin

No, the constitution protects you from the government searching you and so on against your will. My dad's factory is not a government agency, and you provide your urine of your own free will. He can't make you. You have a choice!!!!! He just won't hire you. No law against that. As an employee, think of yourself as a tool

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Ummmmmmmmm...no thanx, you enjoy your status as a "tool"...I'd rather be poor...:laughing:

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Originally Posted by Ldub

Ummmmmmmmm...no thanx, you enjoy your status as a "tool"...I'd rather be poor...:laughing:

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you could be both:yesb:

Well, how about you think of yourself as an employer. Start a company, provide insurance, paycheck, safety, security and so on. But, you cannot ask them any questions, no interviews and of course no drug tests. You can be the Toolmaster!! I wonder how long that lasts?

(Please note my earlier comment about legalizing pot, never seen anyone high beat their girlfriend, get in a fight and so on)

Drug testing policy bores me, I already said I am not particularly hard over on the issue. Now national drug policy is a different story entirely.

Besides, you and I have already repeated ourselves redundantly on the issues that were brought up, which only lead us to a dead end on discussion on race and ethnicity.

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Originally Posted by Osteomata

Drug testing policy bores me, I already said I am not particularly hard over on the issue. Now national drug policy is a different story entirely.

Besides, you and I have already repeated ourselves redundantly on the issues that were brought up, which only lead us to a dead end on discussion on race and ethnicity.

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Hmmm, ok, how about the article today about the mom being arrested and her teenage daughter taken away because the mother refused to administer some ADHD drug to her. CPS says its child endangerment to not give her the drugs.

I don't see how anyone can think this is ok, ADHD is a made up and certainly non-life threatening disorder. The conservative (as opposed to liberal...lol)amish/menanites refuse medicine of any kind, even aspirin, so how do they keep their kids? Either way, its not the government's job to tell you what drugs you have to give your kids.

http://www.naturalnews.com/033295_pa...ric_drugs.html

:badhorse:

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Originally Posted by Ebenezr

:badhorse:

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Oh well, I suppose this thread is dead until something else happens, I will be back in time for peak 2012 election debates!!! (Well, if the country still exists and is free to vote) Yippee!! I look forward to it!

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Originally Posted by Marlin

Hmmm, ok, how about the article today about the mom being arrested and her teenage daughter taken away because the mother refused to administer some ADHD drug to her. CPS says its child endangerment to not give her the drugs.

I don't see how anyone can think this is ok, ADHD is a made up and certainly non-life threatening disorder. The conservative (as opposed to liberal...lol)amish/menanites refuse medicine of any kind, even aspirin, so how do they keep their kids? Either way, its not the government's job to tell you what drugs you have to give your kids.

http://www.naturalnews.com/033295_pa...ric_drugs.html

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3 siblings go on a robbing and shooting spree. Or when some 3rd generation welfare recipient gives birth to their octuplets, or when the kids not going to school and the parent isnt making them or here lately a woman who was granted child visitation to her kid that was taken away who was found naked and passed out with the baby in a filthy diaper a broken fride and only rotten food in the house. I am not big on govt intervention but I beleive some people shouldnt be allowed kids. And giving the parents time after time to keep screwing up is not fair to the kid

While the excessive force and intrusion of various child protective services is certainly worth a critical look, I am highly suspicious about this source and the accuracy of the facts as they present them. Seriously Marlin, your taking naturalnews.com as a legit and reliable news source? Wackjob psuedoscientific snake oil peddling combined with the most ludicroius of conspiracy theories. Did you see the article below it, by the same author? The one alledging wide spread selling of children by CPS into sexual slavery? Yeah, good link there allright.

So I read at least 10 other articles from local news sources, and not one of them said the medication was for ADHD, it was for psychosis. reasonable people can disagree about the utility of such drugs, overmedication, and intrusion of the State in parental matters, and maybe this is a case where all three are supportable, but I think a better starting point is called for.

Man you have sent me down a rabbit hole. I don't think I can adequately express how bad the local news is on the Maryanne Godboldo story, giving the most cursory information cut and pasted from their last article. I have read through maybe 20 things, and there are a LOT of allegations out there, and almost no one supporting those allegations with any evidence. But it really really does seem that Michigan CPS acted deplorably, made no effort at intervention before the take away order, snatched a child in an unnecessarily combative way and using a warrant no judge had seen, kept the child institutionalized rather than letting her stay with other families, and realized that she probably didn’t need the drug that they took her away in order to administer anyway. AND that may be routine, AND that if it had not been for the police standoff, it would have been brushed under the carpet and this woman might still be separated from the child. Looks bad.

This makes me think of the DUI concept,if a person gets busted with a DUI, its probably their 100th time driving drunk, and certainly not their first. How many similar cases are there each day in America? Even if it was for psychosis, who is the government to tell the mom that she has to drug her daughter?
Also keep in mind that psychology is an art, not a science. A psychology degree is a BA, not a BS. Everything in psychology, especially meds, is not fact, but theory. They are not sure how all of those drugs work, only the results.
It drives me up the wall how a doctor will give a 30 day supply of xanax to a housewife knowing that 49% of patients are addicted in less than 14 days. The xanax website goes on to say that withdrawal can be fatal if not tapered after long term usage, with they defined as 12 weeks. 12 weeks!? They had my wife on that stuff for months, enough pills every 30 days for a pill a day, phone in refills. The doctor was also not aware of the severe long term effects of benzos. Upon further research,UK strictly limits xanax and other benzos to 5 pills per month without admission to a hospital. The same can be said about ambien, lunesta, vicodin and so on. These drugs are highly addictive, potentially brain damaging and life destroying. I refer to them as recreational housewife drugs.
When did doctors get into the business of making people happy vice making them better? That was rhetorical, once drug companies started giving kickbacks/incentives for pushing "sponsored" meds, that is when. In some places, its illegal for a doc to get a kickback form the company, so they "rent" bulletin board or table space for advertisements. Drives me crazy. When I broke my hand a few months ago, the doc tried to prescribe me vicodin, it only hurt if I squeezed hard, such as a hand shake. I said "no way, wouldn't it be safer to just tell me not to squeeze hard till its completely healed?" He said that would work too. Here he was, ready to give me a narcotic, just to make me happy?

I'm not going to argue that there is a problem with over-prescribing by docs going on, but a few things about your statement seem either inaccurate or exaggerated. Regardless of the type of bachelors degree associated with an undergraduate education, psychology is not an "art", it is a science, albeit a soft science, say in the way that economics is. Universities vary as to whether it is a BA or a BS, with some offering both options. But that is hardly the issue because prescribing of such medication is done by either a full doctor (often a psychiatrist), but not a psychologist. The former has a full medical degree not just a BA or BS.

As for fact vs theory, that pretty much describes science as a whole. Gravity is a theory. The Germ Theory of Disease is a theory. The question is if the theory is well supported and in the case of benzos or other psychiatric meds, are the chemical mechanisms known. You seem to be suggesting that they are not, that doctors stumbled across these chemicals and found that the produce X result much of the time without knowing how. This is just not true. The mechanisms for Xanax and the rest are quite well known. Which is not to say that they are not overprescribed, addictive, contain variable side effects, have varying efficacy for different individuals, and must be weened off to avoid a bad and dangerous chemical imbalance. They also have great value for quite a number of people.

I have also experienced exactly the opposite in terms of doctors willingness to prescribe much of anything. I suspect this may be a function of being on Tricare rather than having access to an actual military clinic now, but the last primary care doc my wife and I had was about as stingy with even the most basic prescriptions, and wreaked some havoc for us when we were trying to continue a course of treatment for allergies after moving to his area. I can't imagine what we would have had to do to get him to prescribe something like Xanax.

Pain medication is a funny thing. For many injuries, not having the pain med significantly interferes with the healing process due to an inability to relax the muscles around the effected area, sleep, or work through rehabilitation. I want to repeat that I believe you about overprescription for plenty of people, and abuse by even more, but pain treatment has become pretty demonized, and doctors specializing in it are getting harder to find as they become more afraid of being raided based on bad or manufactured evidence, and caught up in a politically charged overreaction by the government when all they are trying to do is manage real patient pain. Which brings us full circle.

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Originally Posted by Marlin

This makes me think of the DUI concept,if a person gets busted with a DUI, its probably their 100th time driving drunk, and certainly not their first. How many similar cases are there each day in America? Even if it was for psychosis, who is the government to tell the mom that she has to drug her daughter?
Also keep in mind that psychology is an art, not a science. A psychology degree is a BA, not a BS. Everything in psychology, especially meds, is not fact, but theory. They are not sure how all of those drugs work, only the results.
It drives me up the wall how a doctor will give a 30 day supply of xanax to a housewife knowing that 49% of patients are addicted in less than 14 days. The xanax website goes on to say that withdrawal can be fatal if not tapered after long term usage, with they defined as 12 weeks. 12 weeks!? They had my wife on that stuff for months, enough pills every 30 days for a pill a day, phone in refills. The doctor was also not aware of the severe long term effects of benzos. Upon further research,UK strictly limits xanax and other benzos to 5 pills per month without admission to a hospital. The same can be said about ambien, lunesta, vicodin and so on. These drugs are highly addictive, potentially brain damaging and life destroying. I refer to them as recreational housewife drugs.
When did doctors get into the business of making people happy vice making them better? That was rhetorical, once drug companies started giving kickbacks/incentives for pushing "sponsored" meds, that is when. In some places, its illegal for a doc to get a kickback form the company, so they "rent" bulletin board or table space for advertisements. Drives me crazy. When I broke my hand a few months ago, the doc tried to prescribe me vicodin, it only hurt if I squeezed hard, such as a hand shake. I said "no way, wouldn't it be safer to just tell me not to squeeze hard till its completely healed?" He said that would work too. Here he was, ready to give me a narcotic, just to make me happy?

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