Its the last day of the month....

I agree that this thread should be locked. Not because it's such a controversial subject - but because it has become cyclic to the point of nausium.

I'm happily in the group that feels that this forum is a huge asset to me and am happy to pay the annual dues to keep it up and running. If this site were to ever go away ... I don't even want to think about that!!!

Those who don't feel that they should contribute (financially at least), I can respect your decision while not agreeing with it. Consider your free access a gift from the 300 or so members who do keep the site running with financial contributions (yes, I made up the 300 #, I have no idea how many contribute on a regular basis).

More comments illustrating once again that hearing, does not equal understanding. :winky:

I think people replying to this thread should have to fill out one of these before they submit their response:

http://img.tfd.com/cde/_CAPTCH5.GIF

because I swear robots are replying now.

Bart

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

More comments illustrating once again that hearing, does not equal understanding. :winky:

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Thank you for defining all of your posts on this thread in one post, really nice of you.

Well thanks for telling us what to expect from all of your posts, we appreciate it, and by we I mean everyone who financially contributes and thus keeps this site up and running :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

More comments illustrating once again that hearing, does not equal understanding. :winky:

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I'm curious, is there any way of asking for financial contributions that would be acceptable to you?

Man, pledge drives on public television must drive you nuts.

I'm just glad the site is still alive. Thought maybe Scott finally went all Michael Bolton on the server after reading this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0_S_EdZ_I8

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Originally Posted by vt_maverick

Thought maybe Scott finally went all Michael Bolton on the server after reading this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0_S_EdZ_I8

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PC Load Letter:madb:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUUptX0i55g

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

pledge drives on public television must drive you nuts.

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I hate those things:yesb:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

I agree that this thread should be locked

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of course you do:rollb2:

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Originally Posted by VXR

of course you do:rollb2:

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Sorry Dude, I spent my formitive years in Tennessee. You'll hafta 'splain yourself a little better than that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vt_maverick

I'm just glad the site is still alive. Thought maybe Scott finally went all Michael Bolton on the server after reading this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0_S_EdZ_I8

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by VXR

PC Load Letter:madb:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUUptX0i55g

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That's what guns and little bits of C-4 are for!! I love the smell of burnt PCB in the morning...

And I do kinda like the idea of the TV fundraising drive... Hmmmmm

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

Man, pledge drives on public television must drive you nuts.

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I was thinking the exact same thing, yesterday while driving home from work, while listening to MPR...during a pledge drive...:yesgray:.:laughing:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

Sorry Dude, I spent my formitive years in Tennessee. You'll hafta 'splain yourself a little better than that.

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Are you saying there's something wrong with us Tennessee-uns? My uncle grandpa says I'm smart!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samneil2000

Are you saying there's something wrong with us Tennessee-uns? My uncle grandpa says I'm smart!

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Not at all.

Borne in Maine
moved to New Hampshire
then Kentucky
then Weisbaden
then Aukamm
then 3 places in Florida
then Pennsylvania
then Tennessee
then Georgia
then Tennessee
then Georgia
then Tennessee
then Georgia
then Tennessee
then Georgia
then 2 different places in Virginia

Don't rekin I could talk smack about anyone without degrading meself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VXR

of course you do:rollb2:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

Sorry Dude, I spent my formitive years in Tennessee. You'll hafta 'splain yourself a little better than that.

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Oh, I think I can help ya out brutter Tom......it seems, anything associated with me is tainted...:evil:..... MMUUUHHHAAWWHHAAAWWAAA :naughty:....and since you're one of my Nutz brothers and agreed with me about locking this thread, you're getting lumped into that .... :thumbup: ...:rotate:...
:disturbed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

Not at all.

Borne in Maine
moved to New Hampshire
then Kentucky
then Weisbaden
then Aukamm
then 3 places in Florida
then Pennsylvania
then Tennessee
then Georgia
then Tennessee
then Georgia
then Tennessee
then Georgia
then Tennessee
then Georgia
then 2 different places in Virginia

Don't rekin I could talk smack about anyone without degrading meself.

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Dang T4B, you've gotten around.....that 'splains alot....I think.....:goof:
.
.
.....OK, I'll help ya here too.......:slap:

.....that 'splains alot....

'cept for the confusion years where I was moving between TN & GA every 3 months ... I got really good at it though. All of my worldly possessions could fit in the trunk of my car.

At least I'm in good company.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleBeast

Thank you for defining all of your posts on this thread in one post, really nice of you.

Well thanks for telling us what to expect from all of your posts, we appreciate it, and by we I mean everyone who financially contributes and thus keeps this site up and running :-)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

I'm curious, is there any way of asking for financial contributions that would be acceptable to you?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

Sorry Dude, I spent my formitive years in Tennessee. You'll hafta 'splain yourself a little better than that.

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(I know this wasn't directed at me specifically when your wrote it t4b, but your most recent comments have so...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VX KAT

Dang T4B, you've gotten around.....that 'splains alot....I think.....:goof:

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So what you all are apparently saying is that in an effort to try to understand what I've been saying, you've not bothered to go back and read the explanations I HAVE provided on numerous occasions in these threads, yet you're still trying to say that the ball is in my court to explain what it is I've been saying?

I guess my last comment should have been changed to read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

More comments illustrating once again that not even attempting to hear can obviously only equal never understanding. :winky:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

(I know this wasn't directed at me specifically when your wrote it t4b, but your most recent comments have so...)

So what you all are apparently saying is that in an effort to try to understand what I've been saying, you've not bothered to go back and read the explanations I HAVE provided on numerous occasions in these threads, yet you're still trying to say that the ball is in my court to explain what it is I've been saying?

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:_thinking :confused: Umm, are we reading the same words? I was talkin' 'bout T4B moving around /relocating a lot in his lifetime....was nuthin' 'bout hearing, understanding or 'splainin' anything..... :_thinking

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

(I know this wasn't directed at me specifically when your wrote it t4b, but your most recent comments have so...)

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I must really be dense today 'cause I don't recall making comments directed at anyone specifically:_thinking

If you are referring to post #121, then you've misinterpreted what I meant for the general public to hear. I do understand your original points - I just disagree with them ... AND I was talking to the general audience, not anyone in particular.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

So what you all are apparently saying is that in an effort to try to understand what I've been saying, you've not bothered to go back and read the explanations I HAVE provided on numerous occasions in these threads, yet you're still trying to say that the ball is in my court to explain what it is I've been saying?

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No, I've read it. What I have gathered is you seem to feel some sort of intolerable social obligation is placed on you by requests for donations..."moral judgements" you perceive as being placed on you for not donating. So my question still stands: Given that the site does need actual money to exist, what means of requesting donations for such money would be acceptable to you? This is a serious question.

Oh by the way, I haven't contributed either. I don't want you to think I am coming at this from some position of perceived moral superiority.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

No, I've read it. What I have gathered is you seem to feel some sort of intolerable social obligation is placed on you by requests for donations..."moral judgements" you perceive as being placed on you for not donating. So my question still stands: Given that the site does need actual money to exist, what means of requesting donations for such money would be acceptable to you? This is a serious question.

Oh by the way, I haven't contributed either. I don't want you to think I am coming at this from some position of perceived moral superiority.

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X2...do tell trek..:_confused

As MANY here on the forums, that I consider good friends, also are NOT site supporters, I'm having a hard time to figure out where you get the idea of persecution &/or moral judgement...:confused:

Is it all about you?

Have you noticed, that with very few exceptions, YOU are the only one following the beat of that single drum?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

I must really be dense today 'cause I don't recall making comments directed at anyone specifically

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Well I think this was directed at me:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tom4bren

Sorry Dude, I spent my formitive years in Tennessee. You'll hafta 'splain yourself a little better than that.

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no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VX KAT

:_thinking :confused: Umm, are we reading the same words?:_thinking

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:_thinking Umm, nope:rollb:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

No, I've read it. What I have gathered is you seem to feel some sort of intolerable social obligation is placed on you by requests for donations..."moral judgements" you perceive as being placed on you for not donating. So my question still stands: Given that the site does need actual money to exist, what means of requesting donations for such money would be acceptable to you? This is a serious question.

Oh by the way, I haven't contributed either. I don't want you to think I am coming at this from some position of perceived moral superiority.

---

And given you're quoted statement, how you've gathered it is in fact not as I've explained it. That that hasn't stopped you (and others who also still haven't gathered it correctly) from making responses implying I'm the person who doesn't understand what's being said though is only one of the types of responses I've been referring to.

In what seems to have become an exercise in futility though:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

Given that the site does need actual money to exist, what means of requesting donations for such money would be acceptable to you?

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Requesting donations that include no implied "moral judgements" directed at those who do not donate for whatever reason.

Seriously, is that hard to understand what's being implied by some who donate saying that THEY do so because it's the "right thing to do" while in the same breath describing those who don't as not "getting it"?

Simple as that, and what it would seem MOST would innately consider "acceptable".

The question you SHOULD be asking of some of the members here is why they seem to have such a problem NOT being able to do that.

The problem you'll encounter based on my experiences in these threads (and again, some of these latest responses to even my last comment) seems to be finding even one of the members who do so who is apparently even self-aware enough to realize that they're doing it.

In what seems to have become an exercise in futility though...wait for it...;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

Requesting donations that include no implied "moral judgements" directed at those who do not donate for whatever reason.

Seriously, is that hard to understand what's being implied by some who donate saying that THEY do so because it's the "right thing to do" while in the same breath describing those who don't as not "getting it"?

Simple as that

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X2 well said:yesb:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ldub

Have you noticed, that with very few exceptions, YOU are the only one following the beat of that single drum?

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:confused:

What is that definition of insanity?
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.:bgwb:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott Harness

What is that definition of insanity?
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.:bgwb:

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Yep, and I'm done with the craziness...

146, now 147 posts in a seemingly innocent, good hearted post.

Here's the final deal... If you choose to just be a member of the site, whether you create threads, reply to posts, create How-Tos, write reviews, test drive for others, donate financially, donate in other ways, choose not to donate in any way, troll, choose to not actively participate in anything, choose to actively participate in everything, sit and be quiet, beat your chest or what ever floats your boat.

It is all gratefully appreciated. I cannot express in simple words, how much, it's just not possible.

Outside of Administrative duties on the site, no one has any hierarchical status over anyone else.
The only perceived status change is if someone donates financially, the color of their username changes. If I could figure a system that would track every good deed done on the site and change their username color to match, I would. 'aint gonna happen. I could run through and read every post and contact everyone to track that information but that would be a full time job. I already have one and three part time jobs so, I don't need another.

If the majority rules, I can abolish the "Site Donor recognition" part of the site and make it anonymous. There are however, other ways to tell if someone donated such as the amount of photos they have in their gallery, etc. So, I could abolish that as well, or I could just make it even across the board, everyone gets the same benefits but, then where's the incentive for making donations or in their truer name "Site Subscriptions".

I believe that the true culprit here in this thread is PERCEPTION. No matter your perception on ANYTHING that was said in this thread, the simple FACTS of this site are;

• Without the VX, there would be no reason for this site.
• Without you as a participant, there would be no reason for this site.
• Participation in any form is encouraged and apprciated
• NO ONE is any better than anyone else, no matter your perception.
• As long as the rules of the site are honored, ANYONE is welcomed here.
• Open debate on any subject matter is encouraged as long as the rules of the site are followed. (Hence the long life of this thread)
• ANYONE who violates the rules is subject to discipline.

Since this thread is getting monotonous digression is recommended.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VXR

Well I think this was directed at me:



no?

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Nope. In this case you were wrong. I honestly didn't understand your post. It was written like I had hidden meaning in my post. I 'splained it fairly simply that I thought that the thread should be locked because it had made multiple 360's & was going nowhere.

Trust me ... there's not much going on upstairs. What I write is what I mean.

Oh BTW. TN is God's country. I would never make any disparaging remarks about the people down there ... God bless their little hearts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

And given you're quoted statement, how you've gathered it is in fact not as I've explained it.

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"Moral judgements" was your statement, not mine.

Quote:

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That that hasn't stopped you (and others who also still haven't gathered it correctly) from making responses implying I'm the person who doesn't understand what's being said though is only one of the types of responses I've been referring to.

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Um, OK.

Quote:

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Requesting donations that include no implied "moral judgements" directed at those who do not donate for whatever reason.

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This is an online forum. Nobody here is in position to judge anybody, other than as a peer would in any social situation.

Quote:

---

Seriously, is that hard to understand what's being implied by some who donate saying that THEY do so because it's the "right thing to do" while in the same breath describing those who don't as not "getting it"?

Simple as that, and what it would seem MOST would innately consider "acceptable".

---

You seem overly sensitive to simple salesmanship. You are being sold all the time. From TV ads implying you are smart for driving car X, to Girl Scout selling cookies, to public radio pledge drives, you are being sold. Requests for donations are the same thing. People are trying to convince you there is something of value in exchange for your money.

What you seem to feel is some sort of judgement is nothing more than salesmanship. The fact that the salesmen in question are "volunteers" doesn't give them any special status, unless you make it so.

After reading the entire thread over the last hour or so, I have, for what it's worth, a couple of observations as a relative newcomer and having no pre-conceived opinions about anyone on here, (nor do I sit in judgement of anyone as a result of reading it);

1) Slightly off topic - whatever that was :p - but nevertheless worth a mention; the general standard of English far exceeds that of my fellow U.K. residents, (on MkIVSupra.net at least), as does the intellect of the posters on here and their equally high standard of typing. After a year of trawling through countless pages of often unabbreviated, mis-spelt text speak contrasted by unfathomably creative literary genius by the more educated members than I, it makes a very refreshing change to be able to follow a thread as easily as this one, confusing as it was at times. Thank you all! :)

2) Perception is indeed the issue here. Everyone has their own world-view but it's in our interests to put ourselves in another's shoes and strive to understand exactly why someone might see things differently. Simply accept that differences are inevitable and respect eachother's right to hold another viewpoint. That is, afterall, why God if you will, created relativity in the first place! Celebrate your uniqueness and honour it in others.

I, for example, fully sympathise with Scott's stance on the matter of funding and his reasons for the current system. I would however, for the purposes of clarity if nothing else, should he choose to explain in more depth the way it's calculated, question the wisdom of essentially relying on 15 members each month to contribute $20 and the existing members that aren't due for annual 'renewal' to take up the slack when there aren't enough new members, in a club that by definition, has a limited vehicle/owner base.

I mean, do the numbers add up?

It's not a matter of whether it's worth it. Of course it's worth $20 a year to a regular member and more, as has been pointed out in this thread. It's more a mathematical problem. For example,

A) How many members are 'due' for an average month and can be 'expected' though not in any way obliged to contribute and how many actually do?

B) How many new members can you expect to join and then contribute for that average month?

C) Who's going to make up the shortfall when, not if it occurs from time to time, hence the reminder thread/s?

Either it is absolutely fine to not hit the target from time to time or it isn't. If it isn't okay to come up short, a system must be devised by which 'due' members are either solicited or gently prodded to contribute and/or reserve members can be called upon when necessary by prior arrangement. I think the former would be more popular, even if it means raising the $20 annual subscription charge.

I for one, would not mind seeing a couple of banners from contributing traders, for example, 'sponsors', if you will, as per the Supra Forum I mentioned. On there, we quite often 'nudge' individuals to cough up when they hit their first 30 posts and those that are stayers, happily pay the joining fee. If they don't, they're banned from posting until they do! Those that only come on for a quick bit of advice are encouraged to join and if they don't, it's not a problem, at least not financially. :)

Monstertrucker, I just read your reply and tried to imagine it with an English accent. :laughing:

Good to have you aboard, I wish we had more international representation. :)

:_beer:

Bart

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moncha

...The only perceived status change is if someone donates financially, the color of their username changes. If I could figure a system that would track every good deed done on the site and change their username color to match, I would. 'aint gonna happen. I could run through and read every post and contact everyone to track that information but that would be a full time job. I already have one and three part time jobs so, I don't need another.

If the majority rules, I can abolish the "Site Donor recognition" part of the site and make it anonymous. There are however, other ways to tell if someone donated such as the amount of photos they have in their gallery, etc. So, I could abolish that as well, or I could just make it even across the board, everyone gets the same benefits but, then where's the incentive for making donations or in their truer name "Site Subscriptions"...

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And speaking of perceptions, I would like to clarify that neither of those things was being suggested specifically (or even implied indirectly) in ANY of my comments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

"Moral judgements" was your statement, not mine.

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Um, I realize that. And if you STILL don't think any moral judgements have been made or implied by the types of statements I gave the example of, then we'll just have to continue to agree to disagree on what we consider moral judgements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

Um, OK.

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Ya know, you're nodding your head like you understand, but I have to admit, I still have my doubts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

This is an online forum. Nobody here is in position to judge anybody, other than as a peer would in any social situation.

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Well I suppose that makes it all A-OK then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

You seem overly sensitive to simple salesmanship. You are being sold all the time. From TV ads implying you are smart for driving car X, to Girl Scout selling cookies, to public radio pledge drives, you are being sold. Requests for donations are the same thing. People are trying to convince you there is something of value in exchange for your money.

What you seem to feel is some sort of judgement is nothing more than salesmanship. The fact that the salesmen in question are "volunteers" doesn't give them any special status, unless you make it so.

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Simple salesmanship? Apparently, even after it's explained ONCE AGAIN, you STILL either choose to only see things how you want to see them, or simply didn't understand again. My comments haven't been addressing "requests for donations", they've been addressing "HOW THOSE DONATIONS ARE REQUESTED".

If that's not simple enough, perhaps it'd be best to just stop and ponder it for awhile, then pick up where we left off when our usual suspects inevitably start this stuff up again next time. I know I'm not going anywhere anyway...so please...take your time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

I know I'm not going anywhere anyway...so please...take your time.

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Yes you sure are not going anywhere near the donate screen or the subscribe button anyway, no matter what anyone says...so we will take our time, I mean it is not like you pay to hear our comments so I guess we should take all the time in the world :winko:

Too bad I can't make any comment about why you should donate or subscribe because then I would be labeled by you a "usual suspect".

As always sarcasm is implied here I hope you know that :yeso: Cheers VX brothers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleBeast

Yes you sure are not going anywhere near the donate screen or the subscribe button anyway, no matter what anyone says...so we will take our time, I mean it is not like you pay to hear our comments so I guess we should take all the time in the world :winko:

Too bad I can't make any comment about why you should donate or subscribe because then I would be labeled by you a "usual suspect".

As always sarcasm is implied here I hope you know that :yeso: Cheers VX brothers

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good one:rollb2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleBeast

Too bad I can't make any comment about why you should donate or subscribe because then I would be labeled by you a "usual suspect".

As always sarcasm is implied here I hope you know that :yeso: Cheers VX brothers

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It's not so bad really...:yesgray:

Keeping things in perspective is the key.

It's only an opinion, held by someone you already disagree with, so...:_confused...:laughing:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Y33TREKker

Simple salesmanship? Apparently, even after it's explained ONCE AGAIN, you STILL either choose to only see things how you want to see them, or simply didn't understand again. My comments haven't been addressing "requests for donations", they've been addressing "HOW THOSE DONATIONS ARE REQUESTED".

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It's funny, because both of us apparently feel the other guy is a dolt for not understanding the issue.

While I feel I do understand the root of your issue, it is true that I don't understand why you think it is such a big deal.

Enough. This story has become tiresome. Now is the time on Shprockets ven ve dance. :dance:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleBeast

Yes you sure are not going anywhere near the donate screen or the subscribe button anyway, no matter what anyone says...so we will take our time, I mean it is not like you pay to hear our comments so I guess we should take all the time in the world :winko:

Too bad I can't make any comment about why you should donate or subscribe because then I would be labeled by you a "usual suspect".

As always sarcasm is implied here I hope you know that :yeso: Cheers VX brothers

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I know you SAY sarcasm is always implied, but I still have my doubts because another way to view that is that you're now just covering your *** for all your past comments. Denial is always easy, and since no one seems to be going anywhere, it's obvious it can also sometimes be lengthy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

It's funny, because both of us apparently feel the other guy is a dolt for not understanding the issue.

While I feel I do understand the root of your issue...

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Well that you understand what I've been saying has obviously not been proven.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigSwede

...it is true that I don't understand why you think it is such a big deal.

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I've already explained that. But I agree. Enough. This story has become tiresome.